TOPIC: Transmute Token Ideas

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Aegoce wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

I think in the other threads dealing with spells identified that pretty much nobody's running out of spells unless they have cabal or are in grind. It may be possible that a new player that draws one of these would not be able to hit on a 25, but they also probably never need to try.

I believe if you look at the people who are never running out of spells, they are probably in part achieving that with support from multiple other URs like Charm of spell swapping, ring of spell storing, crown of expertise, getting to level 5 somehow.

A level 4 wizard has 10 damage spells. A level 5 wizard has 14.

There is no difficulty in running out of 10 damage spells in a 4 combat dungeon.

For the level 4 wizard running Normal, bring necklace and ring of the Norns / medallion of energy if you’re worried about spell count. That adds an extra 8 spell casts, though ring of the Norns does let you double up with another spell cast.

Maybe a build like this:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=570&id=250935&start=0#361643

Edit - the plus side with that build is that the ranged attack is also comparable damage wise to the level 0 spells, so the first combat action in the first combat room can be a ranged attack to preserve a spell too.

A 4th level wizard has only 3 Level 1 damage spells, so Medallion of Energy / Ring of the Norns gives you at most 3 additional rounds of combat where you can cast spells. It could be less, if combats end at awkward times. It also trades off against +1 or +2 damage to all spells in the same slot - so it's overall benefit is questionable.

Ring of the Norns doesn't change whether you run out of spells, but does provide up to 15 points of damage for a L4 Wizard over the course of a dungeon which is very good for a Rare.

It is very possible to run out of spells as a L4 wizard, even with this equipment. An L4 Elf Wizard has one less damage spell.

Turn 1) level 0 spell
Turn 2) ring of the Norns and level 1 spell
Turn 3) necklace of the Norns
Turn 4?) Ranged attack

That leaves you 2 level 0 spells and 2 level 2 spells by the 4th combat room. I guess it depends how against that ranged attack you are if any of your combats get to round 4.

It also assumes you don’t want to cast casts grace or bulls strength

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

In Epic runs and high level grind it is completely possible (and in grind, likely) for the Wizard to run out of damage spells. None of the 0 level spells have infinite use.

It's been argued STRONGLY for many years that allowing an auto hit 0 level spell with no limit on uses that deals 1+spell damage modifier is overpowered, so a sliding spell option was proposed, to allow for miss chance on the attacks.

It'd be a great addition for True Grind players and it would allow Wizards who wish to conserve stronger spells to have their own version of a "basic slide attack"

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

In Epic runs and high level grind it is completely possible (and in grind, likely) for the Wizard to run out of damage spells. None of the 0 level spells have infinite use.

It's been argued STRONGLY for many years that allowing an auto hit 0 level spell with no limit on uses that deals 1+spell damage modifier is overpowered, so a sliding spell option was proposed, to allow for miss chance on the attacks.

It'd be a great addition for True Grind players and it would allow Wizards who wish to conserve stronger spells to have their own version of a "basic slide attack"

That makes sense. Like I said, I don't do TG, and I haven't done an epic run.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

In Epic runs and high level grind it is completely possible (and in grind, likely) for the Wizard to run out of damage spells. None of the 0 level spells have infinite use.

It's been argued STRONGLY for many years that allowing an auto hit 0 level spell with no limit on uses that deals 1+spell damage modifier is overpowered, so a sliding spell option was proposed, to allow for miss chance on the attacks.

It'd be a great addition for True Grind players and it would allow Wizards who wish to conserve stronger spells to have their own version of a "basic slide attack"

My $0.02: If you're getting a damage boost on the necklace (especially with some of the boost amounts talked about), the unlimited-use cantrip should be a slide. No boost, then make it an auto-hit.

I do agree with bpsy that if the Wizard is sliding for a Melee attack that something is wrong. But mostly since I'd expect their Ranged attack to-hit to be better, and thus they shouldn've been sliding for a Ranged attack instead.

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

In Epic runs and high level grind it is completely possible (and in grind, likely) for the Wizard to run out of damage spells. None of the 0 level spells have infinite use.

It's been argued STRONGLY for many years that allowing an auto hit 0 level spell with no limit on uses that deals 1+spell damage modifier is overpowered, so a sliding spell option was proposed, to allow for miss chance on the attacks.

It'd be a great addition for True Grind players and it would allow Wizards who wish to conserve stronger spells to have their own version of a "basic slide attack"

My $0.02: If you're getting a damage boost on the necklace (especially with some of the boost amounts talked about), the unlimited-use cantrip should be a slide. No boost, then make it an auto-hit.

I do agree with bpsy that if the Wizard is sliding for a Melee attack that something is wrong. But mostly since I'd expect their Ranged attack to-hit to be better, and thus they shouldn've been sliding for a Ranged attack instead.

I got pretty good sliding numbers - I hit on anything other than a 1 for my sliding spells (target 15).

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

In Epic runs and high level grind it is completely possible (and in grind, likely) for the Wizard to run out of damage spells. None of the 0 level spells have infinite use.

It's been argued STRONGLY for many years that allowing an auto hit 0 level spell with no limit on uses that deals 1+spell damage modifier is overpowered, so a sliding spell option was proposed, to allow for miss chance on the attacks.

It'd be a great addition for True Grind players and it would allow Wizards who wish to conserve stronger spells to have their own version of a "basic slide attack"

My $0.02: If you're getting a damage boost on the necklace (especially with some of the boost amounts talked about), the unlimited-use cantrip should be a slide. No boost, then make it an auto-hit.

I do agree with bpsy that if the Wizard is sliding for a Melee attack that something is wrong. But mostly since I'd expect their Ranged attack to-hit to be better, and thus they shouldn've been sliding for a Ranged attack instead.

Yep. It's pretty much been the conclusion that, in order for the spell to be infinite use it needs to be a slide.

Target AC for spells is 15 but it's currently VERY easy for a Wizard to hit +13 ranged/spell to hit and it was mentioned that AC 15 would be too low so we're suggesting static AC 25 "as a spell" gaining all spell to hit bonuses (possibly rolling in the Ring of Wizardry effect allowing slide spells to critical as it'd be thematically appropriate)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

In Epic runs and high level grind it is completely possible (and in grind, likely) for the Wizard to run out of damage spells. None of the 0 level spells have infinite use.

It's been argued STRONGLY for many years that allowing an auto hit 0 level spell with no limit on uses that deals 1+spell damage modifier is overpowered, so a sliding spell option was proposed, to allow for miss chance on the attacks.

It'd be a great addition for True Grind players and it would allow Wizards who wish to conserve stronger spells to have their own version of a "basic slide attack"

My $0.02: If you're getting a damage boost on the necklace (especially with some of the boost amounts talked about), the unlimited-use cantrip should be a slide. No boost, then make it an auto-hit.

I do agree with bpsy that if the Wizard is sliding for a Melee attack that something is wrong. But mostly since I'd expect their Ranged attack to-hit to be better, and thus they shouldn've been sliding for a Ranged attack instead.

Yep. It's pretty much been the conclusion that, in order for the spell to be infinite use it needs to be a slide.

Target AC for spells is 15 but it's currently VERY easy for a Wizard to hit +13 ranged/spell to hit and it was mentioned that AC 15 would be too low so we're suggesting static AC 25 "as a spell" gaining all spell to hit bonuses (possibly rolling in the Ring of Wizardry effect allowing slide spells to critical as it'd be thematically appropriate)

I've never understood why the target AC for spells stays the same no matter what the difficulty is.

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

In Epic runs and high level grind it is completely possible (and in grind, likely) for the Wizard to run out of damage spells. None of the 0 level spells have infinite use.

It's been argued STRONGLY for many years that allowing an auto hit 0 level spell with no limit on uses that deals 1+spell damage modifier is overpowered, so a sliding spell option was proposed, to allow for miss chance on the attacks.

It'd be a great addition for True Grind players and it would allow Wizards who wish to conserve stronger spells to have their own version of a "basic slide attack"

My $0.02: If you're getting a damage boost on the necklace (especially with some of the boost amounts talked about), the unlimited-use cantrip should be a slide. No boost, then make it an auto-hit.

I do agree with bpsy that if the Wizard is sliding for a Melee attack that something is wrong. But mostly since I'd expect their Ranged attack to-hit to be better, and thus they shouldn've been sliding for a Ranged attack instead.

Yep. It's pretty much been the conclusion that, in order for the spell to be infinite use it needs to be a slide.

Target AC for spells is 15 but it's currently VERY easy for a Wizard to hit +13 ranged/spell to hit and it was mentioned that AC 15 would be too low so we're suggesting static AC 25 "as a spell" gaining all spell to hit bonuses (possibly rolling in the Ring of Wizardry effect allowing slide spells to critical as it'd be thematically appropriate)

I've never understood why the target AC for spells stays the same no matter what the difficulty is.

I would say it's a feature of the spell, not the monster/difficulty. It's one less thing for DMs to have to worry about.

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

Absolutely agree. One of the main reasons I play a wizard is to avoid sliding. I have a skull of doom (which is basically one free ranged attack per combat) and I've used it like three times in the decade that I've owned it.

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

The experience of casting only 4-5 spells per dungeon is not similar to mine.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

bpsymington wrote: What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

The experience of casting only 4-5 spells per dungeon is not similar to mine.

I typically mark off 10-12 spells per run.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Aegoce wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

I think in the other threads dealing with spells identified that pretty much nobody's running out of spells unless they have cabal or are in grind. It may be possible that a new player that draws one of these would not be able to hit on a 25, but they also probably never need to try.

I believe if you look at the people who are never running out of spells, they are probably in part achieving that with support from multiple other URs like Charm of spell swapping, ring of spell storing, crown of expertise, getting to level 5 somehow.

A level 4 wizard has 10 damage spells. A level 5 wizard has 14.

There is no difficulty in running out of 10 damage spells in a 4 combat dungeon.

For the level 4 wizard running Normal, bring necklace and ring of the Norns / medallion of energy if you’re worried about spell count. That adds an extra 8 spell casts, though ring of the Norns does let you double up with another spell cast.

Maybe a build like this:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=570&id=250935&start=0#361643

Edit - the plus side with that build is that the ranged attack is also comparable damage wise to the level 0 spells, so the first combat action in the first combat room can be a ranged attack to preserve a spell too.

A 4th level wizard has only 3 Level 1 damage spells, so Medallion of Energy / Ring of the Norns gives you at most 3 additional rounds of combat where you can cast spells. It could be less, if combats end at awkward times. It also trades off against +1 or +2 damage to all spells in the same slot - so it's overall benefit is questionable.

Ring of the Norns doesn't change whether you run out of spells, but does provide up to 15 points of damage for a L4 Wizard over the course of a dungeon which is very good for a Rare.

It is very possible to run out of spells as a L4 wizard, even with this equipment. An L4 Elf Wizard has one less damage spell.

Turn 1) level 0 spell
Turn 2) ring of the Norns and level 1 spell
Turn 3) necklace of the Norns
Turn 4?) Ranged attack

That leaves you 2 level 0 spells and 2 level 2 spells by the 4th combat room. I guess it depends how against that ranged attack you are if any of your combats get to round 4.

It also assumes you don’t want to cast casts grace or bulls strength

I’m arguing it’s possible for L4 wizard and elf wizard to run out of damage dealing spells from their card while casting damage dealing spells each round in combat under typical dungeon scenarios.

I agree you can choose to not cast damage spells during combat rounds, And instead do other things like cast cats grace, make ranged or melee attacks, or any other Non-damage-spell thing, including doing nothing, to alter the likelihood of running out of damage spells to cast before the end of the dungeon.