TOPIC: Transmute Token Ideas

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

That is true.

Perhaps have it give +3 to spell slides as part of the token and let it go against monster AC.

Wizards are generally fairly low on +to hit so a little bump goes a long way.

Prefer no additional bonus to hit AC 25.

The static AC target of 25 as a spell slide seems to be the most positively received option of those discussed.
I would definitely support the Relic/Legendary having a spell slide built in on AC 25 target that has a damage type wheel instead of a damage number wheel. I think it would be a fun, unique way to give the Wizards in grind/cabal wizards/wizards not wanting to burn a spell in round 3 of a fight to have a good way to continue participating in the combat.

I really hope Jeff is willing to consider this, it'd resolve one of my core issues with the Wizard class and remove my reason for refusing to run Grind. (not that it affects other people, but I choose not to true grind due to the need for me to spend money on low damage tokens in order to participate the whole time)

I would say the legendary you probably need to choose one of these 3:
1) add a potentially significant amount damage (thus still having the risk of running out of spells)
2) give a free first or second level spell that can be cast either on a limited basis (1/room)
3) slide against monster AC with an unlimited amount of casting.

Why?

The Monk got a damage boost, a skills boost and a UR token power and a psychic power trigger

The Rogue got a massive crit boost on sneak attack, ignores crit immunity and can sneak twice 1/room

The Barbarian got a damage boost, another Rage 1/game and a unique 2/game effect

even the Ranger got a Ranged damage boost, a CON boost and the ability to summon an animal while ranged attacking for additional damage.


Why should the Wizards only get 1 effect when every other class gets 3?

Every other class? I notice you didn't include Druid on that list.

Druid gets free polymorph into elemental as an instant action. 10 Dr of the element they choose and can use any polymorph potion without consuming it.

But yes, it is less strong, you are correct

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The Rogue got a massive crit boost on sneak attack, ignores crit immunity and can sneak twice 1/room.

The Rogue legendary necklace doesn’t ignore crit immunity. Rogues who want to sneak/crit everything still need to wear the Bracers of Guided Strike. Per the token database:

Raphiel’s Sneaky Necklace
All the wearer’s sneak attacks can crit on 17-20 (assuming the target is capable of being critically hit, whether naturally or via a token that overcomes crit immunities).

The three things the Rogue legendary did are: 1) expand crit range, 2) allow sneak without a one round delay, and 3) allow sneak attacking one monster a second time. The undelayed sneak ability was available from multiple tokens at different power levels prior to the relic/legendary being created. (Common (1) - forest only, Uncommon (1) - outdoors only, Rare (3) - anywhere, UR (1) - anywhere, and also offered +2 to hit on sneak attacks.)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

That is true.

Perhaps have it give +3 to spell slides as part of the token and let it go against monster AC.

Wizards are generally fairly low on +to hit so a little bump goes a long way.

Prefer no additional bonus to hit AC 25.

The static AC target of 25 as a spell slide seems to be the most positively received option of those discussed.
I would definitely support the Relic/Legendary having a spell slide built in on AC 25 target that has a damage type wheel instead of a damage number wheel. I think it would be a fun, unique way to give the Wizards in grind/cabal wizards/wizards not wanting to burn a spell in round 3 of a fight to have a good way to continue participating in the combat.

I really hope Jeff is willing to consider this, it'd resolve one of my core issues with the Wizard class and remove my reason for refusing to run Grind. (not that it affects other people, but I choose not to true grind due to the need for me to spend money on low damage tokens in order to participate the whole time)

I would say the legendary you probably need to choose one of these 3:
1) add a potentially significant amount damage (thus still having the risk of running out of spells)
2) give a free first or second level spell that can be cast either on a limited basis (1/room)
3) slide against monster AC with an unlimited amount of casting.

Why?

The Monk got a damage boost, a skills boost and a UR token power and a psychic power trigger

The Rogue got a massive crit boost on sneak attack, ignores crit immunity and can sneak twice 1/room

The Barbarian got a damage boost, another Rage 1/game and a unique 2/game effect

even the Ranger got a Ranged damage boost, a CON boost and the ability to summon an animal while ranged attacking for additional damage.


Why should the Wizards only get 1 effect when every other class gets 3?

Every other class? I notice you didn't include Druid on that list.

Druid gets free polymorph into elemental as an instant action. 10 Dr of the element they choose and can use any polymorph potion without consuming it.

But yes, it is less strong, you are correct

It gives a really fun boost to an aspect of the class that seemed underutilized. I love playing the polymorphing Druid with the Legendary. Things don't have to be the most powerful to be fun.

I posted these two concepts for the Fighter Legendary in the thread in the barracks but I wanted to make sure they were in the official thread as well.





#1 JEFF'S MEDALLION OF DEATH DUALING (Name tbd)
DUAL WIELD - (A second puck comes with the transmute and is the player's responsibility to carry through the dungeon.) Slide like Ranger. Second puck can only hold a weapon usable by Rogue. Can also equip a shield. (Requires DEX 20+)
STAT BONUSES: +5 STR, +3 DEX, +3 CON, +3 saves

#2 JEFF'S MEDALLION OF ULTIMATE FIGHTING (Name tbd)
TACTICAL ADVANTAGE - If Fighter hits after using Weapon Specialization, he automatically crits.
BATTLE MASTER - Use a two-handed weapon as if it is one-handed.
STAT BONUSES: +5 STR, +3 DEX, +5 CON, +7 to dmg with Melee attacks, +3 saves

I really like the idea of DUAL WIELD for the shock-and-awe of newer players who, for the most part, often play Fiighter because of it's simplicity. It will inspire them to go further down the TD rabbit-hole and make this token.

I'm also facinated about the possiblities for using a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon ability. Players at the Legendary level usually have tokens to play a range of classes, particularly, the Fighter-types so this is another opportunity for players to give their Barbarian weapon to their Fighter.

Fiddy had the good idea to put the details of the powers on the website and just have direction on the token. I think this is smart for two reasons, 1) It means less clutter on the token and 2) If powers need to be adjusted down the road, it allows for that flexibilty without people having to exchange the token for an updated one down the road.

Hope you like.

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

That is true.

Perhaps have it give +3 to spell slides as part of the token and let it go against monster AC.

Wizards are generally fairly low on +to hit so a little bump goes a long way.

Prefer no additional bonus to hit AC 25.

The static AC target of 25 as a spell slide seems to be the most positively received option of those discussed.
I would definitely support the Relic/Legendary having a spell slide built in on AC 25 target that has a damage type wheel instead of a damage number wheel. I think it would be a fun, unique way to give the Wizards in grind/cabal wizards/wizards not wanting to burn a spell in round 3 of a fight to have a good way to continue participating in the combat.

I really hope Jeff is willing to consider this, it'd resolve one of my core issues with the Wizard class and remove my reason for refusing to run Grind. (not that it affects other people, but I choose not to true grind due to the need for me to spend money on low damage tokens in order to participate the whole time)

I would say the legendary you probably need to choose one of these 3:
1) add a potentially significant amount damage (thus still having the risk of running out of spells)
2) give a free first or second level spell that can be cast either on a limited basis (1/room)
3) slide against monster AC with an unlimited amount of casting.

Disagree. You can always choose to not utilize an ability if you don't want it.

edwin wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

That is true.

Perhaps have it give +3 to spell slides as part of the token and let it go against monster AC.

Wizards are generally fairly low on +to hit so a little bump goes a long way.

Prefer no additional bonus to hit AC 25.

The static AC target of 25 as a spell slide seems to be the most positively received option of those discussed.
I would definitely support the Relic/Legendary having a spell slide built in on AC 25 target that has a damage type wheel instead of a damage number wheel. I think it would be a fun, unique way to give the Wizards in grind/cabal wizards/wizards not wanting to burn a spell in round 3 of a fight to have a good way to continue participating in the combat.

I really hope Jeff is willing to consider this, it'd resolve one of my core issues with the Wizard class and remove my reason for refusing to run Grind. (not that it affects other people, but I choose not to true grind due to the need for me to spend money on low damage tokens in order to participate the whole time)

I would say the legendary you probably need to choose one of these 3:
1) add a potentially significant amount damage (thus still having the risk of running out of spells)
2) give a free first or second level spell that can be cast either on a limited basis (1/room)
3) slide against monster AC with an unlimited amount of casting.

Disagree. You can always choose to not utilize an ability if you don't want it.

So to make sure I understand, you think it’s reasonable to both give the legendary a massive damage boost, as well as give the wizard some form of unlimited spells?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

That is true.

Perhaps have it give +3 to spell slides as part of the token and let it go against monster AC.

Wizards are generally fairly low on +to hit so a little bump goes a long way.

Prefer no additional bonus to hit AC 25.

The static AC target of 25 as a spell slide seems to be the most positively received option of those discussed.
I would definitely support the Relic/Legendary having a spell slide built in on AC 25 target that has a damage type wheel instead of a damage number wheel. I think it would be a fun, unique way to give the Wizards in grind/cabal wizards/wizards not wanting to burn a spell in round 3 of a fight to have a good way to continue participating in the combat.

I really hope Jeff is willing to consider this, it'd resolve one of my core issues with the Wizard class and remove my reason for refusing to run Grind. (not that it affects other people, but I choose not to true grind due to the need for me to spend money on low damage tokens in order to participate the whole time)

I would say the legendary you probably need to choose one of these 3:
1) add a potentially significant amount damage (thus still having the risk of running out of spells)
2) give a free first or second level spell that can be cast either on a limited basis (1/room)
3) slide against monster AC with an unlimited amount of casting.

Why?

The Monk got a damage boost, a skills boost and a UR token power and a psychic power trigger

The Rogue got a massive crit boost on sneak attack, ignores crit immunity and can sneak twice 1/room

The Barbarian got a damage boost, another Rage 1/game and a unique 2/game effect

even the Ranger got a Ranged damage boost, a CON boost and the ability to summon an animal while ranged attacking for additional damage.


Why should the Wizards only get 1 effect when every other class gets 3?

Every other class? I notice you didn't include Druid on that list.

Druid gets free polymorph into elemental as an instant action. 10 Dr of the element they choose and can use any polymorph potion without consuming it.

But yes, it is less strong, you are correct

The Druid Legendary really only has one ability that is in addition to the Druid Relic, and that will probably rarely be used, which makes it exceptionally weak as a Legendary.

The Relic also has the exact same 10 points of damage resistance. It also lets you polymorph instantly. The Legendary does allow you to cast spells while polymorphed, but the Relic in essence already does that, because you can polymorph to human, cast a spell, and then polymorph back.

The only bonus the Legendary actually gives beyond the Relic is to use a polymorph potion without turning it in, and as of now that seems like it will almost never be used because the Elemental polymorph damage wheel is better than any of the potions.

Fiddy wrote: It gives a really fun boost to an aspect of the class that seemed underutilized. I love playing the polymorphing Druid with the Legendary. Things don't have to be the most powerful to be fun.

It's the only one that I think is in the neighborhood of good design concept. Widseth's is a natural build, so I understand its power level and general utility.

Generally considered the weakest and the only one that isn't "necessary" to maxing out power = best idea - there's a reason I no longer concern myself with the design of UR+ tokens.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Aegoce wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

I think in the other threads dealing with spells identified that pretty much nobody's running out of spells unless they have cabal or are in grind. It may be possible that a new player that draws one of these would not be able to hit on a 25, but they also probably never need to try.

I believe if you look at the people who are never running out of spells, they are probably in part achieving that with support from multiple other URs like Charm of spell swapping, ring of spell storing, crown of expertise, getting to level 5 somehow.

A level 4 wizard has 10 damage spells. A level 5 wizard has 14.

There is no difficulty in running out of 10 damage spells in a 4 combat dungeon.

For the level 4 wizard running Normal, bring necklace and ring of the Norns / medallion of energy if you’re worried about spell count. That adds an extra 8 spell casts, though ring of the Norns does let you double up with another spell cast.

Maybe a build like this:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=570&id=250935&start=0#361643

Edit - the plus side with that build is that the ranged attack is also comparable damage wise to the level 0 spells, so the first combat action in the first combat room can be a ranged attack to preserve a spell too.

A 4th level wizard has only 3 Level 1 damage spells, so Medallion of Energy / Ring of the Norns gives you at most 3 additional rounds of combat where you can cast spells. It could be less than three rounds, depending on the order spells are cast and when combats end.

Ring of the Norns is difficult to analyze - yes, it can extend the number of rounds you cast spells in. But largely by choosing not to use standard actions to cast spells. You should be casting your spells with standard actions when in the dungeon, because time is the enemy. If you do that, you will get at most 1 additional round of spellcasting from Ring of the Norns, whose spell will do 3 damage.

It is very possible to run out of spells as a L4 wizard, even with this equipment. An L4 Elf Wizard has one less damage spell, so that goes double for them.

Note: Ring of the Norns is really good for Red level Wizards! Use it!

Mike Steele wrote: The only bonus the Legendary actually gives beyond the Relic is to use a polymorph potion without turning it in, and as of now that seems like it will almost never be used because the Elemental polymorph damage wheel is better than any of the potions.

It's perfect for you because you've stated many times that you don't build legendary tokens. Folks with the relic basically have it made in the shade..

What's the reasoning for a wizard legendary having a sliding power? Certainly not in our baliiwick, other than one spell, a number of scrolls, and making a melee attack (and if I am doignthat something is very wrong).

Limitless spells seem thematically appropriate, but I don't remember the last time I cast more than 4-5 spells in a dungeon. rue Grind might be different, but I generally don't do TG.

Endgame wrote:

edwin wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Another reason I just thought of to go away from static AC. The random new person that draws one. They might otherwise still be equipped for Normal or possibly HC. That static AC is going to be tougher for them to hit than just hitting the regular monster AC.

That is true.

Perhaps have it give +3 to spell slides as part of the token and let it go against monster AC.

Wizards are generally fairly low on +to hit so a little bump goes a long way.

Prefer no additional bonus to hit AC 25.

The static AC target of 25 as a spell slide seems to be the most positively received option of those discussed.
I would definitely support the Relic/Legendary having a spell slide built in on AC 25 target that has a damage type wheel instead of a damage number wheel. I think it would be a fun, unique way to give the Wizards in grind/cabal wizards/wizards not wanting to burn a spell in round 3 of a fight to have a good way to continue participating in the combat.

I really hope Jeff is willing to consider this, it'd resolve one of my core issues with the Wizard class and remove my reason for refusing to run Grind. (not that it affects other people, but I choose not to true grind due to the need for me to spend money on low damage tokens in order to participate the whole time)

I would say the legendary you probably need to choose one of these 3:
1) add a potentially significant amount damage (thus still having the risk of running out of spells)
2) give a free first or second level spell that can be cast either on a limited basis (1/room)
3) slide against monster AC with an unlimited amount of casting.

Disagree. You can always choose to not utilize an ability if you don't want it.

So to make sure I understand, you think it’s reasonable to both give the legendary a massive damage boost, as well as give the wizard some form of unlimited spells?

Question has already been answers in a posting a while ago.