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TOPIC: Spolier Free Feedback for V1

Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #73

My last spoiler free feedback is that I don't think the adventure was worth $66 or $58 (removing the shipping). I could provide very specific reasons why but they would contain spoilers. I hope some of those things do get fixed if it is ran again as a virtual event, because some of them could be. Others I don't know if they could be fixed, or at least I am not certain how to fix them. Like I previously said, my group has tickets for V2, but I am planning on holding off future purchases for my group until we see the quality of V2. There was a lot of good stuff in V1 one that I really liked and was impressed by which I hope V2 has at that same or higher level, the stuff I felt poor will be where I will want to see improvement in V2.
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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #74

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I'll say that combat was rather underwhelming on Nightmare. Yes, we were a well-kitted party, but I'm pretty sure nothing survived a full round.

Certainly, nothing survived to actually attack us. Rolling 11-20 made it silly, and without pucks being knocked out, overshooting, etc.. there was no drama at all.
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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #75

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
For what it's worth on the war on tokens thing.

I do definitely hear what you are saying about tokens being invalidated. It's been a big gripe of mine over the years. I was happy this year tho to find monsters and puzzles doing actively resistable elemetnal damage. A very positive change from previous years where burning youself with a torch somehow inflicted eldritch damage.

As to the incorporeal/ethereal thing that was you DM unfortunately.
I heard reports of that issue from people on my runs over the time. But in 11 runs I never experienced that.
I am highly of the opinion that a single DM chose to rule it that way. (which should never happen) and that was simply an outlier and a bad luck on that run.

As to validating each token build by having them all laid out...

I hold the tokens for my entire group. I handle the treasure, I do the transmutes, I choose the upgrades.
I know MULTIPLE other platers who are in the same situation.

I also hold 12 complete 25+ token builds, best in slot rare for all 12 classes, that I loan to any player who doesn't already have better.
I have them in token holders. I have them in the exact order of my character creator printout. I know what order they are expected to be in when in that token holder. I carry a pre-filled character sheet with all of the builds precalculated that the coach can simply add to their existing party card.

Also.

I live in Arizona.
Cenobian Kai lives in New Jersey
Steven and Alexis live in Indiana.
Lokin lives 20 miles away from me in Arizona.

Again I hold and maintain the entire token collection for my party.

Each of our builds is 30+ tokens.

Having the DM verify 150 tokens in each coaching room just isn't feasible.


As to the Zoom meetings. It's a licensing thing. Each additional 12 minute window they add requires another host and another zoom account. That's another active expense for the run. Financially it would be a poor decision to double the cost of your coaches by validating every token of all 10 players. That's why they only really examine the specific ultra rare ones that completely change gameplay or add additional physical treasure.

Plus the party card is already stacked with information to record, so adding another piece to validate is rough.

And validating a token exists during a combat is complicated and time consuming. Both are unfortunately bad for the already long running combat rounds.


If the whole party is decked out by a single person then sure, that makes sense...especially if that person is a known person that has had tokens previously identified. After a while the coaches know who all the high rollers are.
But along that same topic, I think because it was virtual and people didnt need to carry 20 pounds of extra tokens through the run, the legendary/UR tokens were free flowing to people that didnt have the gear. Do you think it also lessens the experience for some moderately new players if every time they do a run all their gear is pushed aside by someone else that says "here, use all these instead"? That wouldn’t really be anything for TD to fix, to me that goes along with not spoiling puzzles in a run if you have solved them before. you should also let players get the joy of equipping themselves unless they ask for help.

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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #76

Raywind wrote: I'll say that combat was rather underwhelming on Nightmare. Yes, we were a well-kitted party, but I'm pretty sure nothing survived a full round.

Certainly, nothing survived to actually attack us. Rolling 11-20 made it silly, and without pucks being knocked out, overshooting, etc.. there was no drama at all.

We ran Nightmare for the first time. No combat went less than 3 rounds. Without going into spoilers, combat 1 was 3 rounds for reasons, combat 2 was 4 rounds due to... reasons, and combat 3 was 4 rounds, but just barely, as victory was achieved on the first attack of round 4.

Any more difficulty on combat would have likely lead to a TPK. As it was, I had to use a potion of deaths door for the first time ever.

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #77

I was suspicious of VTD but it was way better than I expected. (To be brutally honest my expectations were near sea level, and I only bought one ticket as more of a courtesy to TD than in anticipation of having a good time. I was so pleasantly wrong.) My brother-in-law played with us Sunday, and he had a blast. He wants to join me on as many future adventures as possible.

I didn’t at all like the Viewmaster room on Friday, but when my second run group got the answer I suddenly loved it. Guess I’m fickle.

I didn’t realize how much I missed the TD family. Seeing people’s faces, both friends and passing “I’ve seen YOU before” folks was great. I’m just sorry I didn’t see more of you.

There were things I liked a lot about VTD that others already mentioned (sound, subtitles, cut scenes, the Oscar-nominated performances by Mr Naglee and other PCs, “ethereal ness,” etc) but I agree the combat was meh. Shuffleboard is cool. Tapping buttons was better than nothing, but not exciting without the fog of war.

The DMs I had refrained from saying the monsters were dead until everyone had taken a turn. There were a couple of times I knew that 80% of the party was just mutilating a corpse, but I appreciated that they let everyone hold onto the illusion their contributions were making a difference :)

jedibcg wrote: My last spoiler free feedback is that I don't think the adventure was worth $66 or $58 (removing the shipping)


Maybe the adventure wasn’t quite worth $66, but the 21 TC and other loot pretty much are. Granted, random newbies only get 3 so their opinions may be harsher. So you can’t really lower the price too much, but there can be improvements. Considering the whole VTD thing was pulled together in a couple of months, it achieved “situational awesomeness” IMO this time. But, the grading scale is going to get tougher with each iteration. I’m not worried because we know how Jeff is; he’s always looking for ways to make things more wow. I’m sure that V2 will be better than V1, so I’m in.
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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #78

Brad Mortensen wrote: Maybe the adventure wasn’t quite worth $66, but the 21 TC and other loot pretty much are.

Loot is so diluted the past several years I don't think that 21 TC make up what I feel was lacking. Obviously I don't know what the percentages are for this pool of loot, but I am not running to get loot. Loot I get so I can make more cool things, if I cannot make cool things it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the run.
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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #79

Brad Mortensen wrote:

jedibcg wrote: My last spoiler free feedback is that I don't think the adventure was worth $66 or $58 (removing the shipping)


Maybe the adventure wasn’t quite worth $66, but the 21 TC and other loot pretty much are. Granted, random newbies only get 3 so their opinions may be harsher. So you can’t really lower the price too much, but there can be improvements. Considering the whole VTD thing was pulled together in a couple of months, it achieved “situational awesomeness” IMO this time. But, the grading scale is going to get tougher with each iteration. I’m not worried because we know how Jeff is; he’s always looking for ways to make things more wow. I’m sure that V2 will be better than V1, so I’m in.


I counted at least 7 people that the group interacted with directly between coach, training, DM, NPCs, epilogue, and golem. I'm not sure if there were more people behind the scenes for some rooms; maybe round it up to 10? The golem and DM were there for over an hour each.

So, personnel wise, I appreciate where the money is going. That's a lot of people to house and feed for a weekend. Plus it helps keeps the lights on at TD HQ. Is it $60 worth of entertainment? That's a question that gets asked about the physical dungeons, and I get where that question applies even more to virtual. The puzzles were worth it, I'd say. Combat... there are opportunities to improve. November is 3 months away, so a lot of time to iterate.

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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #80

Ken Penland wrote: But along that same topic, I think because it was virtual and people didnt need to carry 20 pounds of extra tokens through the run, the legendary/UR tokens were free flowing to people that didnt have the gear. Do you think it also lessens the experience for some moderately new players if every time they do a run all their gear is pushed aside by someone else that says "here, use all these instead"? That wouldn’t really be anything for TD to fix, to me that goes along with not spoiling puzzles in a run if you have solved them before. you should also let players get the joy of equipping themselves unless they ask for help.


Oh absolutely I agree. I always offer tokens with the understanding that there's no pressure to equip them and change your build. They are offered if you wish to use them.

The only tokens that I really actively push for are Charm of Awakened Synergy and Charm of Avarice/Good Fortune as these tokens affect the stats and treasure bonuses of the entire party.

That said, if the Druid wants to play the game with their own tokens and skip equipping any of the offered upgrades I am happy with the resolution.

At the end of the day, the only real goal is "did everyone in the party have a good time?"

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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #81

+1 on VTD combat needing some modifications to the process. I don't think the monsters themselves needed to change.

Without changing the app (or with a very minor change to the app) it would be possible to have a process where the party chooses an order to virtually slide, each slider keeps track of their natural roll number (11-20), then if another slider hits that number they get bumped a random +/- d4 (I'm not sure what the most appropriate randomizer would be maybe d2 maybe d6). This would certainly slow things down, I don't know if it would slow it enough to be less fun than currently.

Some sort of skill based approach to combat on the app for melee would be great, some sort of networked system to make that faster without a lot of back and fort with the DM would be great, independently each of those is likely considerably more challenging to implement than the current app.

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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #82

Brad Mortensen wrote:

jedibcg wrote: My last spoiler free feedback is that I don't think the adventure was worth $66 or $58 (removing the shipping)


Maybe the adventure wasn’t quite worth $66, but the 21 TC and other loot pretty much are. Granted, random newbies only get 3 so their opinions may be harsher. So you can’t really lower the price too much, but there can be improvements. Considering the whole VTD thing was pulled together in a couple of months, it achieved “situational awesomeness” IMO this time. But, the grading scale is going to get tougher with each iteration. I’m not worried because we know how Jeff is; he’s always looking for ways to make things more wow. I’m sure that V2 will be better than V1, so I’m in.


I'm a lot closer to Jedi than Brad on this. Only considering the entertainment, it wasn't really $60+ of entertainment. I think probably including the token draws in the value analysis would be ok short-term, but really limiting long-term (aka, fine for a year as a good way for loyal customers to support the operation, but not a viable way to gain new customers and potentially off-putting for newish customers that enjoyed an in-person run).

Talking to friends my feedback was that I was happy I did it and signed up for a v2 run yesterday, but I would not recommend it currently to anybody that doesn't have significant amounts of extra money sitting around and could deal with a potentially disappointing experience well (compared to TD in person that I recommend trying one run to pretty much anybody who games with confidence they won't be unhappy they did it).

I also trust that Jeff and crew will be able to find areas to improve, and hope that it gets to the point I'd be comfortable recommending it to all my friends that haven't come along to Gen Con before.

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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #83

Let's see, various things based on single, Nightmare run.

1.

I thought the quality dropped as we went along. Besides some stuff in last puzzle room, the later rooms were really uninteresting. I wasn't into the later aesthetic at all. I completely lost what the story was and wasn't understanding the later aesthetic.

I didn't care anything about the intro, transitions, or even find the earlier aesthetic all that. It was only when my friend asked a question about room one that I even realized that the main part of room one was live and not a recording.

At times, things looked better in smaller view. I particularly noticed it with the last room that looked better when it was harder to see. Speaking of which, the perspective is wrong in the last room. The camera should be looking up, not looking down ... at a minimum.

But, then, other people find TD aesthetics much more interesting than I do. Only a few things *pop* to me, like the Felurian room even without Felurian or N2, which I just thought was beautiful, but I like ice/snow more than lava or whatever.

2.

Epilogue room. I bring this up next as it relates to being critical. I was confused as to why the epilogue room existed, until I realized that TA looks for people to comment about stuff in the epilogue room. I only consider the epilogue room for getting the correct stuff for our party, as I don't like commenting on TD when other people around. Other people don't understand how negative I am normally, and I'm going to dwell on things I don't like, which can suck the fun out for people who thought it was awesome.

I'm willing to give feedback off to the side, but that's not easy through Zoom meetings.

3.

I agree about lack of wow factor. I actually don't care about animatronics and costumes. I like a really good looking tree and interesting lighting, by the way.

Again, I thought before the nauseating spinning in room one while waiting to move forward that it was a recording. And, I thought the first few rooms were the best looking. Where N2 had sections of room I just liked to wander around in even when combat was going on.

The physical experience does matter to me because I'm not that visually inclined to where staring at my computer even more than I already do does a whole lot for me. Last puzzle room had beautiful stuff, though it would have popped more if done differently in layout.

Suggestion for future: more snow falling or the like for me, others may think that makes things look more like a bad videogame, though.

4.

Our combat was probably more enjoyable than combat was for everyone else as we finally got around to our inaugural Blowgun Run(TM,C,R). We didn't suck, we blew ... a lot.

But, yeah, combat felt monotonous. The automated die rolling produced too limited a range of values. I would constantly be rolling 19s, when I only could miss on a 1. Difficulty of hitting in Nightmare was way too low, as rolling d10+10 is far, far easier than actually sliding.

We had 8 players and I Guarded two players every room. Guard never triggered. While this is a common TD problem, would be nice if Guard could ever actually do something.

Getting afield from V1 specifically, but I think there should be far more rooms with multiple monsters with different forms of attack so that more abilities are relevant.

While trying to bring the sliding back in or something might make things more interesting, I do realize that that involves significant technical hurdles that don't exist with a random number generator.

5.

The puzzles had to be too easy. Normally, I'm not that great at puzzles, but I understood the three we encountered quickly. On the one hand, I don't like being baffled and we still ended up taking meaningful damage on one of the puzzles as people tried other stuff. On the other, the clues were probably too obvious even before you get to the rogue clues.

6.

I enjoyed it. But, then, what makes me enjoy TD has little to do with aesthetics or air hockey shuffleboard or tokens or NPCs. What makes the experience better or worse is mostly about my fellow players and the esprit de corps, whether succeeding or failing. Our group enjoyed stuff. Our traveling DM was enjoyable to be around.

We have some interest in doing V1, again. Try the other path. Virtual play does make it easy to introduce people who wouldn't make the effort to travel to a con, so I imagine VTD sticking around as a supplement to PTD.

Put another way, for all of the criticisms, we would still do V1 again, so it was clearly worth it to us, but, then, we also have lots of treasure enhancement to mitigate the real cost (in theory, anyway).

Btw, Virtual True Grind should not be that hard, though I imagine for some it might feel way too much like just playing D&D online. I guess the benefit is getting more use out of a larger pool of tokens for those of us with way too many tokens.

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Spolier Free Feedback for V1 5 months 1 week ago #84

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$66 (or $58) is nothing to sneeze at, but I didn't have a problem with the value of the adventure. Covering the cost of TD staff and volunteers is necessary, and I don't mind contributing to help support the existence of something that has given me years of fun and excitement and friendship. I am really glad this worked so well for True Dungeon, so that there can be more True Dungeon.
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