TOPIC: Time to start the 2021 Token dev process

Looking through previous years, we have had at minimum 1 new legendary token per year since 2012 when they were first introduced (that’s 9 years now!). For those interested in the breakdown 2012 3, 2013 1, 2014 5, 2015 2 and CoA, 2016 3, 2017 2, 2018 2, 2019 3, 2020 4. Jeff has made token proclamations through at least 2026. Food for thought, that’s 6 years of legendaries, including these remaining class legendaries.

First, 5 in one year is not actually unheard of given 2014. Second, I think it is a better idea to slow the pace of legendaries and not do Fighters, Wizards, and Cleric all in the same year. I think dropping down to one of these three per year and that being the only legendary would be fine. Third, based on that slower speed, I think having 1 for fighters or 2 for fighters (1 human and 1 dwarf) would be even more reasonable with the slower speed from the argument of giving people enough time to craft it (and addressing only that aspect of the discussion brought up earlier, because personally I want only one legendary that will work for me if I play Wizard or Elf Wizard). I think it would be best to do only Cleric in 2021 to give more design time to consider how class cards might change and I expect a bigger change for fighters/wizards than for clerics, so less of that aspect will be relevant when planning the legendary. That being said, of the three/five, the fighters may be the most straightforward out of the remaining bunch.

Just some of my thoughts on the three vs five and speed of production for the legendaries.

Anthony, this might be a great idea to try. There is a problem with token sales now compared to the days you’re looking at. Legendaries are a form of power creep, but they’re suppose to also be a token sink for all the lost tokens (C/UC/R) that large token buyers accumulate. With all the PYP, Auction, and additional revenue sources (Pax West, Dreamhack...) there are additional token sales as well. Having more Minotaur Hide in the system and not having additional sinks in the system is an issue. I would propose a slow down on the class specific Legendaries (a wizard, a fighter, a cleric) and one non specific to continue to have the sink since that is what they are for. I would also have the fighter and wizard be better for one, and usable by both, and in a few years come out with a second but reversed. I’d also like to see a healer generic neck slot usable by all that can heal and best for one of those classes, and similarity a polymorph that is good but doesn’t tread on the Druid specific. A two weapon fighting style version, a two handed fighting style, and a sword and board neck slot. All of these suggestions would be somewhat class limited but not as restrictive as the current class legendaries.

But ideas are ideas!

macXdmg wrote: Anthony, this might be a great idea to try. There is a problem with token sales now compared to the days you’re looking at. Legendaries are a form of power creep, but they’re suppose to also be a token sink for all the lost tokens (C/UC/R) that large token buyers accumulate. With all the PYP, Auction, and additional revenue sources (Pax West, Dreamhack...) there are additional token sales as well. Having more Minotaur Hide in the system and not having additional sinks in the system is an issue. I would propose a slow down on the class specific Legendaries (a wizard, a fighter, a cleric) and one non specific to continue to have the sink since that is what they are for. I would also have the fighter and wizard be better for one, and usable by both, and in a few years come out with a second but reversed. I’d also like to see a healer generic neck slot usable by all that can heal and best for one of those classes, and similarity a polymorph that is good but doesn’t tread on the Druid specific. A two weapon fighting style version, a two handed fighting style, and a sword and board neck slot. All of these suggestions would be somewhat class limited but not as restrictive as the current class legendaries.

But ideas are ideas!

Thank you. I thought 1-2 per year would be enough of a sink and did not realize the desired range for a sink was 3-4.

Thinking of upcoming legendaries to work on, I think a Legendary FoB-compatible thrown weapon (preferably not usable in Melee) would be a great idea. It adds value to the “returning” effect of the Monk neck Legendary, it gives reason to switch from the GoFF, and the target players (Monks) will need 2 allowing it to full more of the sink for its year while not accelerating the rate at which Legendaries are added to the game as quickly as if it were 2 separate Legendaries doing other things. Not a token for 2021, but maybe 2022.

Reflecting more on Ray’s Ring of Remembrance (my personal favorite token in the game) and the Figurine of Power Cricket, I would like to see more tokens like those.

Token usable by Paladin only: You may take Puzzle damage dealt to one other player instead 1/room.

Token usable by Paladin only: You May take push damage dealt to one other player instead.

Ring of Lollygagging: Take half push damage at end of room.

Charm of Touching Things: -2 non-combat damage.

Definitely prefer to have a total of 12 class legendaries with each one tailored to the specific class.

A more generic verion that covers multiple classes is not attractive for me to use as a sink.

edwin wrote: Definitely prefer to have a total of 12 class legendaries with each one tailored to the specific class.

A more generic verion that covers multiple classes is not attractive for me to use as a sink.

I’m the opposite. I’d rather have 6 dual-class legendaries and 6 generic.

Reason: many people are already locked into a single class with their builds, and that leads to all kinds of drama with pickup groups, and challenges in joining prefab groups.

The class-specific legendaries makes those problems much worse, because the population that can afford to make multiple legendaries they can’t use is pretty small. Currently I tell people I’ll build any character. If I make the Cleric one, I have a choice: tell people nope, it’s Cleric or nothing; or have a $1k+ token in my binder that I can only play with 10-20% of the time.

I would normally make a legendary a year but, paradoxically, given the current schedule, I made zero last year, and probably won’t make a single legendary until 2023. Not even for Cleric.

If there were only six, (fighters, wizards, Druid/Cleric, Rogue/Bard, Monk/Ranger, Barb/Paladin or something like that) then maybe I would stretch and make them all.

And that’s why I think they were a horrible mistake. I honestly don’t think they’ll be the sink people think. Those who will make extra are probably greatly outnumbered by those who won’t make any.

But maybe I’m wrong and in the minority. So whatever. That ship sailed.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

edwin wrote: Definitely prefer to have a total of 12 class legendaries with each one tailored to the specific class.

A more generic verion that covers multiple classes is not attractive for me to use as a sink.

I’m the opposite. I’d rather have 6 dual-class legendaries and 6 generic.

Reason: many people are already locked into a single class with their builds, and that leads to all kinds of drama with pickup groups, and challenges in joining prefab groups.

The class-specific legendaries makes those problems much worse, because the population that can afford to make multiple legendaries they can’t use is pretty small. Currently I tell people I’ll build any character. If I make the Cleric one, I have a choice: tell people nope, it’s Cleric or nothing; or have a $1k+ token in my binder that I can only play with 10-20% of the time.

I would normally make a legendary a year but, paradoxically, given the current schedule, I made zero last year, and probably won’t make a single legendary until 2023. Not even for Cleric.

If there were only six, (fighters, wizards, Druid/Cleric, Rogue/Bard, Monk/Ranger, Barb/Paladin or something like that) then maybe I would stretch and make them all.

And that’s why I think they were a horrible mistake. I honestly don’t think they’ll be the sink people think. Those who will make extra are probably greatly outnumbered by those who won’t make any.

But maybe I’m wrong and in the minority. So whatever. That ship sailed.

So for you, my original thought of 1 to at most 2 per year would be better. Would you consider the Cleric legendary if it was Fighters 2021, Wizards 2022, Cleric 2023?

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

edwin wrote: Definitely prefer to have a total of 12 class legendaries with each one tailored to the specific class.

A more generic verion that covers multiple classes is not attractive for me to use as a sink.

I’m the opposite. I’d rather have 6 dual-class legendaries and 6 generic.

Reason: many people are already locked into a single class with their builds, and that leads to all kinds of drama with pickup groups, and challenges in joining prefab groups.

The class-specific legendaries makes those problems much worse, because the population that can afford to make multiple legendaries they can’t use is pretty small. Currently I tell people I’ll build any character. If I make the Cleric one, I have a choice: tell people nope, it’s Cleric or nothing; or have a $1k+ token in my binder that I can only play with 10-20% of the time.

I would normally make a legendary a year but, paradoxically, given the current schedule, I made zero last year, and probably won’t make a single legendary until 2023. Not even for Cleric.

If there were only six, (fighters, wizards, Druid/Cleric, Rogue/Bard, Monk/Ranger, Barb/Paladin or something like that) then maybe I would stretch and make them all.

And that’s why I think they were a horrible mistake. I honestly don’t think they’ll be the sink people think. Those who will make extra are probably greatly outnumbered by those who won’t make any.

But maybe I’m wrong and in the minority. So whatever. That ship sailed.

So for you, my original thought of 1 to at most 2 per year would be better. Would you consider the Cleric legendary if it was Fighters 2021, Wizards 2022, Cleric 2023?

No. Now that we started down this path, it is best to get it done and over with as quickly as possible. Otherwise, the Clerics are going to find ways to stab you, even without pointy weapons.

Fiddy wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

edwin wrote: Definitely prefer to have a total of 12 class legendaries with each one tailored to the specific class.

A more generic verion that covers multiple classes is not attractive for me to use as a sink.

I’m the opposite. I’d rather have 6 dual-class legendaries and 6 generic.

Reason: many people are already locked into a single class with their builds, and that leads to all kinds of drama with pickup groups, and challenges in joining prefab groups.

The class-specific legendaries makes those problems much worse, because the population that can afford to make multiple legendaries they can’t use is pretty small. Currently I tell people I’ll build any character. If I make the Cleric one, I have a choice: tell people nope, it’s Cleric or nothing; or have a $1k+ token in my binder that I can only play with 10-20% of the time.

I would normally make a legendary a year but, paradoxically, given the current schedule, I made zero last year, and probably won’t make a single legendary until 2023. Not even for Cleric.

If there were only six, (fighters, wizards, Druid/Cleric, Rogue/Bard, Monk/Ranger, Barb/Paladin or something like that) then maybe I would stretch and make them all.

And that’s why I think they were a horrible mistake. I honestly don’t think they’ll be the sink people think. Those who will make extra are probably greatly outnumbered by those who won’t make any.

But maybe I’m wrong and in the minority. So whatever. That ship sailed.

So for you, my original thought of 1 to at most 2 per year would be better. Would you consider the Cleric legendary if it was Fighters 2021, Wizards 2022, Cleric 2023?

No. Now that we started down this path, it is best to get it done and over with as quickly as possible. Otherwise, the Clerics are going to find ways to stab you, even without pointy weapons.

Clerics can have 2021, Fighters 2022, Wizards 2023 (I am Wizard, I’ll go first or last or middle, whichever gets the least complaints).

If it encourages more transmutes to slow it down and the goal is to maximize transmutes, then slow it down! If going at the faster pace encourages more, then stick with the currently planned faster pace. I prefer the path of maximum transmutation, but I also personally prefer the path that slows down the rate at which we reach every slot having at least 1 legendary/eldritch/arcanum. It will be a very sad day when every slot is filled and the token design process either becomes making slotless high end tokens, making new slots each year, or forcing people to choose between which $1000+ token they want to use even if they have committed to a single class and always get to play that one class.

Fiddy wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

edwin wrote: Definitely prefer to have a total of 12 class legendaries with each one tailored to the specific class.

A more generic verion that covers multiple classes is not attractive for me to use as a sink.

I’m the opposite. I’d rather have 6 dual-class legendaries and 6 generic.

Reason: many people are already locked into a single class with their builds, and that leads to all kinds of drama with pickup groups, and challenges in joining prefab groups.

The class-specific legendaries makes those problems much worse, because the population that can afford to make multiple legendaries they can’t use is pretty small. Currently I tell people I’ll build any character. If I make the Cleric one, I have a choice: tell people nope, it’s Cleric or nothing; or have a $1k+ token in my binder that I can only play with 10-20% of the time.

I would normally make a legendary a year but, paradoxically, given the current schedule, I made zero last year, and probably won’t make a single legendary until 2023. Not even for Cleric.

If there were only six, (fighters, wizards, Druid/Cleric, Rogue/Bard, Monk/Ranger, Barb/Paladin or something like that) then maybe I would stretch and make them all.

And that’s why I think they were a horrible mistake. I honestly don’t think they’ll be the sink people think. Those who will make extra are probably greatly outnumbered by those who won’t make any.

But maybe I’m wrong and in the minority. So whatever. That ship sailed.

So for you, my original thought of 1 to at most 2 per year would be better. Would you consider the Cleric legendary if it was Fighters 2021, Wizards 2022, Cleric 2023?

No. Now that we started down this path, it is best to get it done and over with as quickly as possible. Otherwise, the Clerics are going to find ways to stab you, even without pointy weapons.

Just give them cause light/moderate/serious wounds. No pointy objects needed.

My 2 cents. I play wizard and have a preference for human wizard. Especially when I’m playing with PUGs I’ll take either human or elvish if possible.
If there were 2 separate legendaries I probably wouldn’t get either but I am excited about the human elf one.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: So for you, my original thought of 1 to at most 2 per year would be better. Would you consider the Cleric legendary if it was Fighters 2021, Wizards 2022, Cleric 2023?

I’m sorry , Anthony, but you miss my point. My issue is the quantity of class-specific legendaries, not the speed at which they drop. Since there are 12, or even 10, I won’t be making any regardless of whether they get released one, three, or twelve per year. And I think it would be super annoying to those who do want them if we slow down now, especially to those who come last.

If there were only going to be half as many, then yes, making one or two a year would have been fine, leaving space for a few more generic ones. And the flexibility would have meant they wouldn’t have had to be so OP