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TOPIC: Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish

Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #49

Endgame wrote: ... and for mail wearing classes you're probably not worrying about AC in the first place.

And this is the reason people value items differently. There are so many ways to get Saves and in most circumstances (except Incognitos modules) would always value AC over Saves. Unless the Paladin is guarding me ;-)

Yes, I am ok with Lucky surplanting Templar set but I believe the Redoubt Set is the best, followed by Templar (Regen) and Lucky.

Endgame wrote: .
I'll take you up on that. If the Lucky plate and Lucky shield are published as is, I would like to trade my redoubt shield and redoubt plate for them.

Sounds great!

Ed
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #50

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame

I don’t question your math, but don’t forget it’s only the first spell. I think a lot of that potential healing gets wasted, unless they wait until room five or six to heal anybody, and that strategy has its own risks.

That said, I don’t really have a lot to say specifically about any particular token this year. Whatever happens happens.


Certainly - its almost certainly better that the Cleric cast prayer for free. The druid probably casts a damage spell on the first free cast as well. The bard has no reason to cast a spell until using a free soothe wounds though, which still puts the total at around +300 total healing.


You lost me.

Soothe Wounds is +3 per player. Key is +2 each. Focus goes in a pool to spread around - so let’s assume +10 focus, or 1 each. That’s 60, which agree works great for any party as early as Room 1. Where does the other 240 come from?

I have muddied the waters with the Keys.

The Arcane set most likely adds and extra soothe wounds to the party (cleric and druid cast a different spell). Abuse with keys for 52HP + bards remaining focus bonus or just an extra 30 HP if the party does not have keys.

if you add that 52 HP to all of the extra healing generated by the keys, you can get from ~150 to ~300 extra healing.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #51

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: ... and for mail wearing classes you're probably not worrying about AC in the first place.

And this is the reason people value items differently. There are so many ways to get Saves and in most circumstances (except Incognitos modules) would always value AC over Saves. Unless the Paladin is guarding me ;-)

Yes, I am ok with Lucky surplanting Templar set but I believe the Redoubt Set is the best, followed by Templar (Regen) and Lucky.

Endgame wrote: .
I'll take you up on that. If the Lucky plate and Lucky shield are published as is, I would like to trade my redoubt shield and redoubt plate for them.

Sounds great!

Ed


On my Dwarf Fighter build, my saves are 20/16/16 with the Relic Redoubt set

On my sons Druid build, saves are 24/19/23 with the Dragonscale set.

I’m not inclined to substitute the Lucky set.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #52

Harlax wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: ... and for mail wearing classes you're probably not worrying about AC in the first place.

And this is the reason people value items differently. There are so many ways to get Saves and in most circumstances (except Incognitos modules) would always value AC over Saves. Unless the Paladin is guarding me ;-)

Yes, I am ok with Lucky surplanting Templar set but I believe the Redoubt Set is the best, followed by Templar (Regen) and Lucky.

Endgame wrote: .
I'll take you up on that. If the Lucky plate and Lucky shield are published as is, I would like to trade my redoubt shield and redoubt plate for them.

Sounds great!

Ed


On my Dwarf Fighter build, my saves are 20/16/16 with the Relic Redoubt set

On my sons Druid build, saves are 24/19/23 with the Dragonscale set.

I’m not inclined to substitute the Lucky set.

I can understand the dwarf fighter not dropping relics to gain +2 saves at the cost of 3 AC. Would you still have made / purchased the relics if the lucky set had existed first, though?

As for the Druid build - is it the fire resist that would keep you in the set, or is Lucky not enough of an improvement to justify the change? AC wise, Lucky Mail + Lucky Shield + Twolf is only 1 AC away from dragonscale and gains +3 ref, +2 will, +2 fort, can't be surprised.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #53

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: ... and for mail wearing classes you're probably not worrying about AC in the first place.

And this is the reason people value items differently. There are so many ways to get Saves and in most circumstances (except Incognitos modules) would always value AC over Saves. Unless the Paladin is guarding me ;-)

Yes, I am ok with Lucky surplanting Templar set but I believe the Redoubt Set is the best, followed by Templar (Regen) and Lucky.

Endgame wrote: .
I'll take you up on that. If the Lucky plate and Lucky shield are published as is, I would like to trade my redoubt shield and redoubt plate for them.

Sounds great!

Ed


On my Dwarf Fighter build, my saves are 20/16/16 with the Relic Redoubt set

On my sons Druid build, saves are 24/19/23 with the Dragonscale set.

I’m not inclined to substitute the Lucky set.

I can understand the dwarf fighter not dropping relics to gain +2 saves at the cost of 3 AC. Would you still have made / purchased the relics if the lucky set had existed first, though?

As for the Druid build - is it the fire resist that would keep you in the set, or is Lucky not enough of an improvement to justify the change? AC wise, Lucky Mail + Lucky Shield + Twolf is only 1 AC away from dragonscale and gains +3 ref, +2 will, +2 fort, can't be surprised.


I'm staying with Dragonscale Set, but that Lucky Mail/Shield is tempting to combine with a Crown of Expertise.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #54

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame

I don’t question your math, but don’t forget it’s only the first spell. I think a lot of that potential healing gets wasted, unless they wait until room five or six to heal anybody, and that strategy has its own risks.

That said, I don’t really have a lot to say specifically about any particular token this year. Whatever happens happens.


Certainly - its almost certainly better that the Cleric cast prayer for free. The druid probably casts a damage spell on the first free cast as well. The bard has no reason to cast a spell until using a free soothe wounds though, which still puts the total at around +300 total healing.


You lost me.

Soothe Wounds is +3 per player. Key is +2 each. Focus goes in a pool to spread around - so let’s assume +10 focus, or 1 each. That’s 60, which agree works great for any party as early as Room 1. Where does the other 240 come from?

I have muddied the waters with the Keys.

The Arcane set most likely adds and extra soothe wounds to the party (cleric and druid cast a different spell). Abuse with keys for 52HP + bards remaining focus bonus or just an extra 30 HP if the party does not have keys.

if you add that 52 HP to all of the extra healing generated by the keys, you can get from ~150 to ~300 extra healing.


I thought we were only talking about Arcane plus Keys.

For Cleric - even assuming 20 focus and LoDS, that’s 32+20+4 from Keys for +56. Call Druid the same. So maybe +160 tops between the three. That’s why I couldn’t get to 300.

But that assumes the Divine healers don’t cast anything until they can use their best spell. Could happen, but that probably means people used some consumables along the way to avoid wasting any over-healing. Unless people are getting beaten down in pairs early on, of course.

I agree it’s a little odd that healing gotten so severely nerfed last year, and now we’re on track to get back up there pretty quickly. But maybe that was the plan, to open up more healing design space and not focus it so much on Eldritch, considering that set is being closed off with the nearest possible replacement being 8-12 years away.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #55

Had no idea that Ring of the Drake was a tribute token to Jeff's son. I stand by my earlier assessment that it's going to be one of the nicest URs ever.

@Jeff - Glad to hear your son is stoked on the effect.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob C
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #56

Arnold wrote: Had no idea that Ring of the Drake was a tribute token to Jeff's son. I stand by my earlier assessment that it's going to be one of the nicest URs ever.

@Jeff - Glad to hear your son is stoked on the effect.

+1
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #57

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote: Had no idea that Ring of the Drake was a tribute token to Jeff's son. I stand by my earlier assessment that it's going to be one of the nicest URs ever.

@Jeff - Glad to hear your son is stoked on the effect.

+1

Agreed! I think this shows just how much Jeff has his priorities straight
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #58

Arnold wrote: Had no idea that Ring of the Drake was a tribute token to Jeff's son. I stand by my earlier assessment that it's going to be one of the nicest URs ever.

@Jeff - Glad to hear your son is stoked on the effect.


+1
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #59

Jeff Martin wrote: We also radically changed the power of the Arcane set to be more Arcane-focused...and cooler. So this set will be for the spellcasters. Changes in BOLD.

If the arcane set is really aimed at the spellcasters, maybe switch the belt to Belt of Focus. This has a few benefits:

1) It standardizes text and abilities, which is useful for newer players to understand. "Oh, its a focus item"
2) It reduces the text on the token (I think)
2) The typical focus text includes polymorph, so its functionally the same as in that use case

On the flip side, its slightly less useful for Cleric and non spell casters. I don't think non spell casters are using this over most belts (rare +3 str belt of the berserker is arguably the same damage with a hit bonus)

For cleric, its a real decision to go for the arcane set bonus or buff melee.

If you want to preserve the item as is, I understand, but I like the templating benefits of just making it the belt of focus.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #60

Arnold wrote: Had no idea that Ring of the Drake was a tribute token to Jeff's son. I stand by my earlier assessment that it's going to be one of the nicest URs ever.

@Jeff - Glad to hear your son is stoked on the effect.


Did not know that, that's super cool! Bonus dad points for you, Jeff!
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