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TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Token Images

2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #121

OrionW wrote:

Lord of Mistakes wrote: Is there any chance the Ranger Necklace could be made for Melee as well as Ranged builds?
For instance, the Sharp Shooter (+4/+6) could be a bonus to melee damage as well (+2/+3).

The Animal Friend could be to slide both melee tokens like a Ranger, and slide an animal companion with your dominant hand--like a monk--right after the first slides.


The Druid legendary only helps one of the Druid play styles, so there is precedent for this. The bigger issue to me is that I don’t think the Legendary closes the gap between a Ranger using BIS and a BIS Rogue using their Legendary and the Assassin’s crossbow. Of this years Legendaries this is the only one I would increase in power.


Just because there is precedent with the Druid Legendary doesn't mean that the Ranger Legendary should also be limited to one play style.

I don't see anything that would prevent the Ranger Legendary from being able to be used by both Ranged and Melee based Rangers.
The damage bonus could be applied to both Ranged and Melee characters, and the additional slider can be done in a Monk fashion.

I mean these Legendaries should encourage players to have fun and try to make them (and encourage token trading/buying among the most players possible).
If we exclude some of the players without a good reason, then it eliminates fun and token trading for them.

I, personally, am not interested in the Ranger Legendary as it is today.
If it was made more broad than it is today, I might be interested.

Notice, many people on this thread have said the Ranger Legendary is the weakest of the Legendaries, but there haven't been many suggestions about how to address any shortcomings.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #122

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


A rosp bard with the right stuff gives 6/6 per combat and the cleric can add another 3 to hit, I don't know if anyone misses with a plus 9 you basically hit most things on a 3


I'm curious, what right stuff let's the Bard give +6 / +6? The base is +2 /+2, and the Legendary adds +2 / +2. If it requires RoSP, that's a pretty small subset of bard runs.


They have a spell that adds +2+2 with a tomb and ring of spell storing they can use it enough to go for every combat.


That seems like a stretch, it's so corner case since each RoSP only gets one voucher per year and most are probably not used by Bards. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that the Bard Legendary isn't that powerful, it only adds +2 to hit and no bonus damage to the regular Bard Song. True, it does other stuff, but I think it is still well below the Legendaries this year, and the other two from last year are even further below this year.

It adds 2 damage and 2 to hit, yes there is another lute that will give just the +2 damage and some of the other benefits, but the lute is slotless and no drawbacks. It is amazing. I have no problem with it being in print and it does way more then the Holy avenger because it affects the hole party not just the paladin and to lesser against guarded player. The lute might be the best legendary in the game for in game use (CoA doesn’t effect in game and would be a totally different conversation).
I only keep bringing up the lute because some people want to say the Holy avenger is broken because of being slotless. As a 1 to 1 comparison the lute is much better. I am for locking the Holy avenger into the melee hand slot if you are going to use it just to make it slotted to solve this argument as well.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the relative power of the Lute to the proposed class Legendaries. I don't think it's a significant bonus for it that it is slotless or allows other actions, since the individual UR Lutes do the same thing.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #123

Lord of Mistakes wrote: Notice, many people on this thread have said the Ranger Legendary is the weakest of the Legendaries, but there haven't been many suggestions about how to address any shortcomings.


At the end of the day when all the class legendaries are out then there will have to be some that are the weakest. But who are we kidding, it will probably be the cleric’s. Looking forward to the debate when it’s originally “too good”.
Last edit: by Flik.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #124

Flik wrote:

Lord of Mistakes wrote: Notice, many people on this thread have said the Ranger Legendary is the weakest of the Legendaries, but there haven't been many suggestions about how to address any shortcomings.


At the end of the day when all the class legendaries are out then there will have to be some that are the weakest. But who are we kidding, it will probably be the cleric’s. Looking forward to the debate when it’s originally “too good”.


The Ranger Legendary seems superior to anything printed last year, to me. It has:

+10 HP (assuming 5th Level)
+2 Fort Saves
+6 Damage Sharpshooter
+3 Damage to all Ammo Tokens
Read ANY Scroll twice per game
Animal Friend

I'm not sure how that can be considered a weak Legendary, it seems pretty awesome to me. It just means the other Legendaries this year are even more overpowered. I think the solution is to weaken them instead of strengthening this to match them.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #125

Mike Steele wrote:

Flik wrote:

Lord of Mistakes wrote: Notice, many people on this thread have said the Ranger Legendary is the weakest of the Legendaries, but there haven't been many suggestions about how to address any shortcomings.


At the end of the day when all the class legendaries are out then there will have to be some that are the weakest. But who are we kidding, it will probably be the cleric’s. Looking forward to the debate when it’s originally “too good”.


The Ranger Legendary seems superior to anything printed last year, to me. It has:

+10 HP (assuming 5th Level)
+2 Fort Saves
+6 Damage Sharpshooter
+3 Damage to all Ammo Tokens
Read ANY Scroll twice per game
Animal Friend

I'm not sure how that can be considered a weak Legendary, it seems pretty awesome to me. It just means the other Legendaries this year are even more overpowered. I think the solution is to weaken them instead of strengthening this to match them.


I’m not a fan of the animal friend but can see it being fun. I think it would be good if they make it where it’s a separate slide that can be done even at a different time than the ranger slid since it’s it own entity. Use it first for a strategic back stop or use it last to try and knock your bad slide even if the ranger went 2nd

As far as reading the scrolls, is that something that is gonna be used? I haven’t been playing long enough nor do I have the play time to know when/what scrolls would be used
Last edit: by Miathan.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #126

Mike Steele wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I would say last years lute was stronger than many of this years legendary’s. It was SLOTLESS took the Bard song bonus to +4, +4, reroll bad saves, and Bard can do a normal action and free action as though Bard song wasn’t being preformed. It’s strong enough that I considered making one just to lone out to anyone playing with me that wanted to play Bard. I think the Lute is the Most OP legendary so far.


A rosp bard with the right stuff gives 6/6 per combat and the cleric can add another 3 to hit, I don't know if anyone misses with a plus 9 you basically hit most things on a 3


I'm curious, what right stuff let's the Bard give +6 / +6? The base is +2 /+2, and the Legendary adds +2 / +2. If it requires RoSP, that's a pretty small subset of bard runs.


They have a spell that adds +2+2 with a tomb and ring of spell storing they can use it enough to go for every combat.


That seems like a stretch, it's so corner case since each RoSP only gets one voucher per year and most are probably not used by Bards. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that the Bard Legendary isn't that powerful, it only adds +2 to hit and no bonus damage to the regular Bard Song. True, it does other stuff, but I think it is still well below the Legendaries this year, and the other two from last year are even further below this year.

It adds 2 damage and 2 to hit, yes there is another lute that will give just the +2 damage and some of the other benefits, but the lute is slotless and no drawbacks. It is amazing. I have no problem with it being in print and it does way more then the Holy avenger because it affects the hole party not just the paladin and to lesser against guarded player. The lute might be the best legendary in the game for in game use (CoA doesn’t effect in game and would be a totally different conversation).
I only keep bringing up the lute because some people want to say the Holy avenger is broken because of being slotless. As a 1 to 1 comparison the lute is much better. I am for locking the Holy avenger into the melee hand slot if you are going to use it just to make it slotted to solve this argument as well.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the relative power of the Lute to the proposed class Legendaries. I don't think it's a significant bonus for it that it is slotless or allows other actions, since the individual UR Lutes do the same thing.


Another way of looking at is is that Bards have been using a "class based legendary" since 2008, when it was accidentally printed at UR.

I guess it depends on if you're trying to measure distance from prior UR, or dead reckoning on power level.

Widseth's Legendary provides, as a slotless* effect:

1. Two standard actions per round, as long as one of them is Bardsong. Unlimited free actions necessary to get your hands right allowing you to do things like perform bardsong, perform a two handed bow ranged attack, and read a scroll off shield of the scholar all in the same turn.

2. +2 to hit and damage for the entire party. That's like upgrading everyone's uncommon weapons to UR, or rares to Relics, or Relics to Legendaries.

Again... slotless*.

This is enormously powerful. It's also not a tremendous difference from UR Widseth's Mystical Lute.

Whether to measure based on prior BiS or based on total power level is a matter of opinion I suppose, without having an otherwise defined goal to optimize for.


* Not technically slotless, but practically slotless - if you disagree please propose a scenario where this token's behavior differs materially from what it would be if it was technically slotless.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #127

The Falcon wrote: Is it too late to make Monk a slot less
Tattoo or something else,
That way it can be less powerful.


Slotless would make it MORE powerful not less powerful
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #128

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I agree they should be equally powerful, but not necessarily in terms of damage dealt. Perhaps a better way to put it is they should be equally desirable by the players who play those classes.

Looking at the last ones, I think the Bard one is both desirable and powerful since it helps the whole party. The Rogue one seems very thematic and hopefully people who play rogues like it. It's not so much about damage but it does increase damage anyways. I don't play Rogue though.

For last year's druid legendary, I don't know, as I have never played that class nor polymorphed.

For this year, Barbarian should be about damage and it is with extra flavor too. I like it. Paladin is probably about right if the Guarding doesn't stack. Ranger is thematic and not too damage focused. It's only monk that bothers me with its damage focus and high bonus damage.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #129

Bob Chasan wrote:

The Falcon wrote: Is it too late to make Monk a slot less
Tattoo or something else,
That way it can be less powerful.


Slotless would make it MORE powerful not less powerful


I think he's proposing a slotless tatoo which has a different, less powerful effect.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #130

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

The Falcon wrote: Is it too late to make Monk a slot less
Tattoo or something else,
That way it can be less powerful.


Slotless would make it MORE powerful not less powerful


I think he's proposing a slotless tatoo which has a different, less powerful effect.


I’m trying to say make it slot less
And change it to a less powerful version.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #131

Mike Steele wrote: Since every class is getting a Class Specific Relic and Legendary, it seems important (to me at least) that they all be pretty balanced in order of power. It seems to me that the power of this year's Legendary tokens far exceeds last year's. To be honest, this year's Relics seem to me to be more powerful than last year's Legendaries. For instance, last year none of the Class Legendary tokens granted bonus combat or spell damage, while this year they all do, except for the Paladin token which more than makes up for it in other areas (as Kirk pointed out all of it's bonuses are essentially slotless since it can be swapped out with another weapon).

Does anyone else agree the Legendaries should all be balanced, even though they are spread out over a number of years? If so - does it seem to anyone else that this year's Legendaries are FAR more powerful than last years? It seems to me that the bonus damage could be stripped completely and they'd still be on par with last year.


I have yet to catch up on all these posts but after reading yours I took a look at last years Legendaries, and even earlier Legendaries and compared them to this year's and this year's are all way more powerful then last years. They also kill the older Legendaries.

Hopefully all these get toned down.

Edit: Last years Lute is probably in the category of these. The others are weaker. IMO.
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Last edit: by Rob F.
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2020 Transmuted Token Images 1 year 2 months ago #132

The Falcon wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

The Falcon wrote: Is it too late to make Monk a slot less
Tattoo or something else,
That way it can be less powerful.


Slotless would make it MORE powerful not less powerful


I think he's proposing a slotless tatoo which has a different, less powerful effect.


I’m trying to say make it slot less
And change it to a less powerful version.


OK Got it.
So we’re talking about the class legendary, given that people argue vehemently about how overpowered any slotless token is compared to a slotted token, do you have any ideas what this would look like? I don’t play Monk so I am sincerely asking not trying to be snarky.
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