"Why are there so many effects on these tokens? Can't we just save some mechanics for other tokens?" - Said someone, in the long long ago.
Let's start with the paladin stuff first as I like paladin, am not that interested in barbarian or ranger, and only like my monk builds that have nothing to do with what the monk is supposed to do.
Holy Avenger
I started thinking (more than 10 seconds ago, btw) about something I said last year about a theoretical Holy Avenger path. My versions would not help guard and LoH because this is a weapon and because ... you *can* always put those effects on other tokens.
More so with the ranger than the paladin, but there comes across this feeling of throwing as much possible at these class specific transmutes. Sure, that pretty much happened with Widseth's, but it made sense based on what was already available to do that with Widseth's. Raphiel's takes one thing, admittedly the rogue doesn't have a bunch of different abilities, and pushes hard until it seems (someone can correct me) like the rogue gains massive powerfulness. Iktomi took one aspect, a not so core aspect of the class, and pushed hard to, well, to interest me in having one, anyway.
The Holy Avenger is a weapon. What it did in 1e was protect from magic, okay, that's a defensive ability, and beat down on Chaotic Evils. We can't define Chaotic Evil and it sounds like the game has moved to where defining bonuses on something as common as Evil is undesirable, so I'm going to change my tune.
I'm now okay with the Holy Avenger just flat out doing more damage than Welfor's or whatever. The suggested bonus to damage against Evil would have pretty much done that, anyway, in practice. Now, maybe just mess around with a couple of the numbers on the damage wheel rather than raise across the board, but I'm no longer bothered by the paladin only weapon that will never get surpassed until Zeus's Lightning Bolt of Autokill gets made does a lot of damage.
I'm also not bothered by autokilling evil outsider on any 20, anymore. It saves text over defining numbers for autokill, and it's not like the legendary will lose abilities from the lower rarities.
However, it can't both do a bunch of other things and be more offensive [well ...].
So, let's get back to the current version. Of the relic as amazingly enough relics should still be good.
As a practical matter, +3 saves and +5 LoH. First of all, what does +5 LoH mean? Sure, someone at the relic owning level probably has a sense of how TD mechanics work, but not always. Does this mean I Lay someone for 1 and they get back 6, then I Lay them for one and they get back 6? Or, does it mean my Lay pool is embiggened by 5?
I have a Holy Avenger. I dump stuff into relicasizing it. I want power, sweet, sweet power. +1 to hit and damage is mild. +5 LoH? Well, if it increases every single Lay by 5, that's obscene, so that satisfies the lust for power that all paladins should embrace. I'm thinking it's probably +5 to the pool, which turns into +10 if you Crown of Expertise your LoH. Eh, that's not that great. So, +3 Saves. Bonus to saves is a good thematic fit. I think +1 to party saves is a better ability with a better thematic fit, while +saves to who you guard is far too annoying to track. But, would I ever not move from UR to relic for +3 saves? Of course, I'd make that move. Would I do it for +2 saves? Yeahhh, probably. +1? Maybe not if money is a concern.
If just +1/+1, no LoH, and +3 saves, that seems an obvious upgrade to make. +2 saves is an obvious upgrade to make at some point.
Seems to me that LoH is a thematic fail for a weapon, is confusing unless wordy, and can be saved for another token that also does Sacrifice stuff or whatever. However, some increase in damage, while not respectful to previous legendaries, does make some thematic sense and would make some folks feel better (personally, I don't care about more damage that much).
Something to do with saves is fine. My preference is +1 to party, but I can see +2 to self if that is easier to deal with and +1 to party seems bard level broken. +2 is what I vaguely recall Protection from Evil spell did, too, but don't quote me.
+5 Holy Avenger
Assuming you could stand reading my rambles, I'm obviously not in favor of more Guard, Sacrifice, or LoH on thematic grounds. But, thematics can't decide everything.
Is being able to Guard 3 allies broken? Well, it just means that in parties larger than four players, all of the attacks will go to the other party members, at least that's my experience when I Guard others, so I often don't bother (well, that and I'm usually easier to hit than my allies because I don't care about AC). Assuming that there are allies you would even want to Guard, it does seem like uberGuarding is reducing the experience some in a general sense but not for the paladin player.
I'd much rather that there was a shield or whatever *in the future* that increased number Guarded, so I'm already biased. But, I have vague worries that too much combat control by the players, who, at this level, should already dominate combat, just cheapens the combat experience even more.
Now, there are those that think the ability wouldn't stack with the Amulet. If it didn't, then you vastly reduce the value of the Amulet to the billions and billions of TDers who are playing paladin with a legendary weapon. But, otherwise, you just empower the paladin's neck. That seems tolerable.
Sacrifice. I agree that it doesn't come up, but, then, for whatever reason, my paladin runs routinely mean that nobody is ever seriously threatened. I still like the idea. I do think it's wordy to include it on this token, plus it has little to do with Avenging.
LoH, same as above.
+5 Saves. Yikes. Admittedly, Widseth's is, in my mind, the most broken token in the game, and one party member gaining saves from a weapon slot isn't as bad as my thought, in theory, of having +2 Saves for the party. But, it's certainly a nobrainer if you have the means to legendasize your Holy Avenger.
I do have sympathy with those who say the Holy Avenger without something different isn't that cool. If Sacrifice never matters, then that isn't cool. Guarding is supposedly cool. LoH bonus is always useful. I'd prefer that the LoH benefit be more like double each application of LoH, but I'd prefer that be on a different token. The obvious problem is that each class isn't going to get a bunch of class specific tokens for a very, very long time.
So, let's rein in the legendary. May Guard a second ally to free up neck slot yet control Guarding some, double each use of LoH, keep saves at same level as relic, which I suggest is +2. Sure, autokill on any 20 because it won't go away. Don't increase damage, which means relic doesn't get damage bonus, either. Is this the right level for the only paladin legendary for a long, long time?
Ranger
So, busy. How about save at least one but probably two mechanics for other ranger token(s)? Sure, sales will collapse when an UR isn't +3 damage and +4 Str, but I vaguely recall spending money to get such things as Greater Holy Symbol of Pelor, Figurine of Power Phoenix, Amulet of Guarding, Mad Evoker's Charm, Lenses of Divine Sight, etc. before the inevitable bubble bursting.
The scroll use amuses me because 1e had rangers kind of more magicky than you think. But, it just seems awkwardly stapled on. Ammo is fine, it's a relatively rangerish thing.
As much as Animal Friend strikes me as something cool to do for the ranger and the druid and maybe the bard and maybe the wizard at some other time (necessitating seriously different mechanics), at least it's different, even if it ends up being mechanically largely the same as Shadow Shot, which is not even a token I like (though, I have one because a few of us pick up class specific tokens that don't become legendary).
Barbarian
I'll speculate that Fury is spending hp to do more damage. That synergizes well with the high hp, DR, and fight after death of the barbarians. Shouldn't transmutes add DR?
Monk
I don't like, but this is other people's fight. I play ranged monks who gain nothing from much of this. All Shuriken do +15 damage and ... nvm.
Lenses of the Owl
What does this do? +1. +1 what? To hit and damage? Should spell it out. Let's say it does +1 to hit and +1 damage. That sounds perfectly fine.
Ring of Fervor
Not Ring of Fevor. Mechanically, okay.
Charm of Timely Aid
I have a poor sense of what is appropriate at this rarity level. So, having just looked at the tokendb for same rarity ... there are some rather good tokens at this rarity level. Obviously, this is not Treasure Boosting.
I don't think it's elegant to use Initiative rolls to determine anything, including Initiative, but I have to go back to math, sadly. In a three fight dungeon, 1-4, barring weird rerolls of Initiative, like Lesser Maze, will occur less than 50% of the time. That means you could have made Tempest Gloves, Ogre Power, Whetstone, Treasure Boosting, or whatever or you could make a token that does nothing more than half the time. In a four Initiative roll dungeon, 60% of the time something happens.
Looking at just the probabilities of something happening at all rather than the average hp gain from the token, seems like 1-6 is the range. However, I'm assuming there's no fight when at full health, which is an incredibly sketchy assumption.
Who is this token for? Seems like a rare level player playing a challenging difficulty. Have to have enough hp to begin with that people avoid healing you to full/near full. Figure only two fights where this would actually matter. That suggests a range more like 1-8.
What's the average gain with 1-8. Well 40% of 10, so 4hp times my expectation that only two fights will actually matter for the gain, equals 8hp. I could drink a potion to gain 10hp.
It's an amusing token, to be sure. I like it for the story aspect of when it triggers and makes a difference, but the current version sounds more like a common than anything else. Expanding the range to 1-8 may do something, but 1-8 is not very elegant, not like 1-10, which seems a bit too common such that you get less good stories.
Ring of Stamina
Okay.
Selfless Savior Stone
My problem with tokens like these is that spending a bunch of money to just save someone in TD seems really wasteful and not all that fun. I'm all for saving people, which is why I like Sacrifice (which I've never used), but as a one-time effect that cost me not only the money and effort to make the transmute but I also can't just have the transmute for collecting purposes? The token looks cute, but it's not cute once it's gone.
I suppose I've used blue potions to keep people alive and red resurrect effect, but those didn't feel like putting effort into gaining a token only to not have it anymore.
