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TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Beta Images

2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #145

Xavon wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Xavon wrote: And frankly, I think having multiple Stun Fists per round is more likely to inspire more 'immune to stun'. than bypassing said immunity. If it can happen a lot, they will want to block it. If it can't be blocked, why bother including the block?

You're probably right on that. I think I would generally prefer a separate token that bypassed stun immunity than sticking it on the relic/legendary. I feel like it uses up too much token "budget" when we could see a cooler, more consistent effect on the relic/legendary instead.


Nothing says it can't appear on a Rare or UR in the future. Like the Sneaky amulet, but in reverse.

Philip Goodman wrote: I am more jazzed about Jinto's dragon stance/form suggestion.


It is interesting. But it is vague and not in TD terms, which make it hard to evaluate. And honestly? I don't think are going to be that happy if the entire power of the Relic/Legendary is once per game.

I think seeing an active power for 1 room 1/game will be more consistent and happen more often than doing anything with stuns or instant kills.

But I am a sucky slider, so take that as you will.

*Another Edit:
I would expect to see a constant modest damage boost still on the tokens such as the current 3/5 damage.
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Last edit: by Philip Goodman.
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #146

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote: On the ring of stamina

As discussed in another thread, the last several 4* transmutes have been Fantastic

The blessed tempest gloves are competitive with / equal to gloves of glory with a relic ring

Belt of ogre mage power is equal to an older UR and the same total attribute bonus as the belt of stone giant str.

Belt of blessed constitution seems very popular, even if it isn't a token for me.

All that said, I think the current ring does not live up to those tokens.

+5 fort and +1 con is more that kind of level, but I can't really tell if that is flat out too good.

Thoughts at +5 fort, +1 con?


+4 Fort and +2 Con would work for me, it's taking the base Ring of Fortitude and adding +2 Con, which converts to +1 Fort saves and 4/5 HP. I like that a lot more than +3 Con for a Ring of Fortitude Transmute. My preference would still be just +6 Fort saves though.

+2 con doesn't help me round out con at all though.

I would much rather +5 fort and +1 con. In this situation, all my builds swap out the blighted pants for this ring (presuming the person in question isn't using rofh anyway)
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #147

Philip Goodman wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Xavon wrote: And frankly, I think having multiple Stun Fists per round is more likely to inspire more 'immune to stun'. than bypassing said immunity. If it can happen a lot, they will want to block it. If it can't be blocked, why bother including the block?

You're probably right on that. I think I would generally prefer a separate token that bypassed stun immunity than sticking it on the relic/legendary. I feel like it uses up too much token "budget" when we could see a cooler, more consistent effect on the relic/legendary instead.


Nothing says it can't appear on a Rare or UR in the future. Like the Sneaky amulet, but in reverse.

Philip Goodman wrote: I am more jazzed about Jinto's dragon stance/form suggestion.


It is interesting. But it is vague and not in TD terms, which make it hard to evaluate. And honestly? I don't think are going to be that happy if the entire power of the Relic/Legendary is once per game.

I think seeing an active power for 1 room 1/game will be more consistent and happen more often than doing anything with stuns or instant kills.

But I am a sucky slider, so take that as you will.


What if instead of additional stuns it inflicted a permanent penalty to hit, damage, or AC? The monster isn't stun locked, but there's a cumulative effect.
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #148

James J Krot wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Really I wish people would stop bringing up the autokill and the sacrifice like they matter, the are going to come into effect almost never and there would be no negative reaction if they were stripped from the token.


I certainly have no problem with those features. My proposal was to remove the saves bonus.


I would rather paladin gets +5 retribution damage it makes it seem more paladin and removes the saves.


That sounds like a great idea. Technically it's on the party card so it still complicates things if weapons are swapped. But I also argue that we should remove retribution damage from the party card. It's hard for DMs to remember, so the players can just remind the DM when they are hit.
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #149

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Philip Goodman wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Xavon wrote: And frankly, I think having multiple Stun Fists per round is more likely to inspire more 'immune to stun'. than bypassing said immunity. If it can happen a lot, they will want to block it. If it can't be blocked, why bother including the block?

You're probably right on that. I think I would generally prefer a separate token that bypassed stun immunity than sticking it on the relic/legendary. I feel like it uses up too much token "budget" when we could see a cooler, more consistent effect on the relic/legendary instead.


Nothing says it can't appear on a Rare or UR in the future. Like the Sneaky amulet, but in reverse.

Philip Goodman wrote: I am more jazzed about Jinto's dragon stance/form suggestion.


It is interesting. But it is vague and not in TD terms, which make it hard to evaluate. And honestly? I don't think are going to be that happy if the entire power of the Relic/Legendary is once per game.

I think seeing an active power for 1 room 1/game will be more consistent and happen more often than doing anything with stuns or instant kills.

But I am a sucky slider, so take that as you will.

*Another Edit:
I would expect to see a constant modest damage boost still on the tokens such as the current 3/5 damage.


Well, again, going back to my original, trying to get away from adding damage.

But being a poor slider is why I am suggesting this, and why the original included Intangible and Invisible. I am an average slider at best. So why I get a 20, I hate to find out that a Crit or Stun didn't happen because the monster is immune. When I get a normal hit, I hate to find out it failed because of Incorporeal or Invisible. Yes, there are ways around those, but they decrease my overall effectiveness, and frankly they smack of metagaming to me. So instead, just stack a bunch of bypass powers together in one spot.

Also, what would people think of the Relic/Legendary letting FoB ignore retribution damage from the monsters?
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #150

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Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote: On the ring of stamina

As discussed in another thread, the last several 4* transmutes have been Fantastic

The blessed tempest gloves are competitive with / equal to gloves of glory with a relic ring

Belt of ogre mage power is equal to an older UR and the same total attribute bonus as the belt of stone giant str.

Belt of blessed constitution seems very popular, even if it isn't a token for me.

All that said, I think the current ring does not live up to those tokens.

+5 fort and +1 con is more that kind of level, but I can't really tell if that is flat out too good.

Thoughts at +5 fort, +1 con?


+4 Fort and +2 Con would work for me, it's taking the base Ring of Fortitude and adding +2 Con, which converts to +1 Fort saves and 4/5 HP. I like that a lot more than +3 Con for a Ring of Fortitude Transmute. My preference would still be just +6 Fort saves though.

+2 con doesn't help me round out con at all though.

I would much rather +5 fort and +1 con. In this situation, all my builds swap out the blighted pants for this ring (presuming the person in question isn't using rofh anyway)


Why would you need to round out your Con, it you are bumped to the next bonus anyway?
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #151

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote: On the ring of stamina

As discussed in another thread, the last several 4* transmutes have been Fantastic

The blessed tempest gloves are competitive with / equal to gloves of glory with a relic ring

Belt of ogre mage power is equal to an older UR and the same total attribute bonus as the belt of stone giant str.

Belt of blessed constitution seems very popular, even if it isn't a token for me.

All that said, I think the current ring does not live up to those tokens.

+5 fort and +1 con is more that kind of level, but I can't really tell if that is flat out too good.

Thoughts at +5 fort, +1 con?


+4 Fort and +2 Con would work for me, it's taking the base Ring of Fortitude and adding +2 Con, which converts to +1 Fort saves and 4/5 HP. I like that a lot more than +3 Con for a Ring of Fortitude Transmute. My preference would still be just +6 Fort saves though.

+2 con doesn't help me round out con at all though.

I would much rather +5 fort and +1 con. In this situation, all my builds swap out the blighted pants for this ring (presuming the person in question isn't using rofh anyway)


I don’t think any of the proposed ring options are a problem as for design space or power creep, they all seem fine as that mid level transmute.
For me when I saw the +6 fort save ring, my instant reaction was that’s a nice upgrade, I wish they had done that for the Ring of Iron Will. So I personally just liked the save ring because it does one thing very well and that is boosting a save, and that makes it very interesting but not broken. I would love to see the +6 to a save ring come out every year until they are all out at the 4 star transmute level.
I don’t think this going to happen but it would be nice if it would.
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #152

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I don't want to keep harping on the +5 Holy Avenger because I'm not anti-paladin or anything. With my backup class being Wizard I find myself liking the guard facility on a regular basis. I really like Paladins, but I rarely play one, so again I want to leave that caveat.

Now imagine the following slotless Legendary:

  • +5 to Saves
    • Guard one more ally
    • Can sacrifice twice
    • 10-pt heal (1/game
    • Auto-kill Evil Outsider on 20


    That's almost as much saves as Pharacus' Cloak, and has the effect of Amulet of Guarding, and is slotless to boot. So that's pretty good. I wouldn't like to remove the extra guard because of the flavor. I agree with others if we reduce the saves to +2 or something then you have a token that's not too OP.

    Now you might argue "but it isn't slotless". I'll argue that it is not only slotless, it is actually better than slotless. Why is that? It's slotless because equipping it in your Mainhand doesn't prevent you from utilizing any other weapons. So it doesn't take up that slot. To be fair it would block something like a Viper Set bonus but most Paladins don't use Viper Strike Fangs from what I see. This is why I consider it slotless. Because there are no weapons higher than a +5 to-hit, and because almost all other weapons don't have a party card effect, there is no downside to equipping this.

    Why is it better than a slotless? Because you can't attack with a slotless. This is also a great weapon. So you can choose: equip it but don't slide it and it is slotless. Slide it and it is a +5 Legendary weapon. This assumes its effects still apply even when you switch weapons which hasn't been explicitly stated.

    So here are the options a Paladin has with this Legendary:
    • If they don't like it as their weapon, equip it and use the other weapon. If the other weapon wasn't a +5 then you just sleazed it into a +5 but didn't break any rules. So it's slotless and also upgrades any other weapon to a +5 to-hit.
    • If they do like it as their weapon, now they have a great Legendary token that is also a great +5 weapon.

    I like the token, just tone down or even remove the save bonus. Actually now that I think about it that's my preferred option. Since save bonuses are recorded on the party card, and since players can swap weapons, it is simpler to not have save bonuses on a weapon.

    No, regarding stacking the guards. It seems we are getting into game-breaking territory here. With 1 guard you have a tough choice. With 3 guards you can guard both wizards as well as the bard. That's 1/3 of the party that doesn't have to worry much about their AC.

    Another way to look at it is the Paladin would be taking an average of 40% of all attacks. In a 3-combat dungeon, with 3 rounds per combat, and 10 players, and with monsters making single-target melee attacks, players were already averaging only one attack per dungeon.


Really I wish people would stop bringing up the autokill and the sacrifice like they matter, the are going to come into effect almost never and there would be no negative reaction if they were stripped from the token.

If we make the +5 Holy avenger too week a lot of us will not want it. Besides we already have a slotless legendary token in the Lute, for no slot it lets a Bard give a total of +4+4 Bard song and gives the Bard a full regular and free action, plus a reroll 1 to 3 failed saves, so yes very strong. I would say getting your action back is stronger than guard.

I’m ok with toning down the sword some but let’s not nerf it into being something I don’t even want. I think locking it into the hand slot fixes all the slotless issues, it can be a Holy avenger only rule with the Golden rule is the tokens text can change a rule. A small tweak can fix all the slotless issues.


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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #153

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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #154

Endgame wrote: On the ring of stamina

As discussed in another thread, the last several 4* transmutes have been Fantastic

The blessed tempest gloves are competitive with / equal to gloves of glory with a relic ring

Belt of ogre mage power is equal to an older UR and the same total attribute bonus as the belt of stone giant str.

Belt of blessed constitution seems very popular, even if it isn't a token for me.

All that said, I think the current ring does not live up to those tokens.

+5 fort and +1 con is more that kind of level, but I can't really tell if that is flat out too good.

Thoughts at +5 fort, +1 con?

The last several transmutes have been wonderful. Whetstone, Tempest gloves, Belt of Ogre Mage Power... all wonderful.

+4/5 Fort, +1 con would make this an interesting choice. I don't think just straight +6 Fort is an interesting jump over +4, and +3 Con obviously has implications for HP (although I liked that option).
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #155

Philip Goodman wrote: a cooler, more consistent effect on the relic/legendary instead.


Ok this is exactly what has been bothering me about some of the proposed relic and Legendaries but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Thanks for pointing this out Phillip. The reason I like the ones from last year is that they all always do something.

A relic or legendary that is just full of corner cases, "only on double 20s" etc etc just doesn't feel Legendary.

At the very least it should have some effect that can always be used by the player if they so choose or change something about the way they do something every single dungeon.

A legendary or relic that 'might' come in handy every other dungeon just doesn't sit very well with me.
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2020 Transmuted Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #156

jpotter wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: a cooler, more consistent effect on the relic/legendary instead.


Ok this is exactly what has been bothering me about some of the proposed relic and Legendaries but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Thanks for pointing this out Phillip. The reason I like the ones from last year is that they all always do something.

A relic or legendary that is just full of corner cases, "only on double 20s" etc etc just doesn't feel Legendary.

At the very least it should have some effect that can always be used by the player if they so choose or change something about the way they do something every single dungeon.

A legendary or relic that 'might' come in handy every other dungeon just doesn't sit very well with me.


+1. I don't really have more to add; I suppose now just wait for the next iteration.
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