Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: 2020 Rare Beta Images

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #49

  • Xavon
  • Xavon's Avatar
  • Offline
  • 7th Level
  • Supporter
  • Obligation is the sincerest form of insanity
  • Posts: 3155

Chris Wiemer wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Word to the wise: adding lower rarity more powerful new tokens to single slot that are worse than several existing BiS options is not “power creep.”

In fact it directly addressed one of the harmful aspects of power creep - which is a large gap between BiS players and everyone else.
.

+1 This is an excellent point.


If 2/10 players in a party are BiS players, to take the wording, and the other 8 are only red players, improving Rare still increases their power individually and of the party as a whole. Same if they are green players and UCs get better. It is even true if it is 9 BiS players and only one red player. The overall power for the level the player is at is creeping up, as is the total power of the party.

And not every purple player is BiS player, either; if a rare meets or surpasses their UR just because there is another UR that is better, that is still power creep. We are not there yet, but as so many anti-power creep proponents say, it is a slippery slope. You can't just design rares based on the best URs. You have to consider the existing rares (if outdated) and the lowest power URs as well. And to a degree other slots.

I am not necessarily opposed to the Amulet of Vigor as written, I just worry that it is jumping to far.

What if we said if was just +3 to STR? Then it is the rare equivalent of a belt slot, and half the total bonus of Stu's/Champion. What if it was +3 to ability of choice? Still half, but you get flexibility.
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #50

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote: Has anyone tried to explain why they think its a good idea that neck is the only slot that rare and under is a 5 stat gap away from UR? Or tried to explain why neck should be a power slot only for UR?


Nope - I’ve asked probably 10 times across these threads and no one has attempted to explain it.

Word to the wise: adding lower rarity more powerful new tokens to single slot that are worse than several existing BiS options is not “power creep.”

In fact it directly addressed one of the harmful aspects of power creep - which is a large gap between BiS players and everyone else.

The time to raise a hue and cry about how good this token is is when Stu-pendous pendant was printed and the best rare neck item was +2 str. Well - we got Stu’s, we got amulet of the champion, we got Medallion of Valhalla, and now it’s well past time we got this.

Thank you, both, for fighting the good fight on this for us lower rarity players. Both with math demonstrating the gap between a 10-year OOP, dungeon-only token and an in-print UR, and with use cases that show how it doesn't threaten established tokens or higher-end builds.
Last edit: by Marc D.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #51

  • James
  • James's Avatar
  • Offline
  • 10th Level
  • Supporter
  • Never let me play druid.
  • Posts: 1764
How about amulet of vigor and charm +2 to str and Cha. I feel like a lot of the rare players could use a way to get an extra figure.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #52

James J Krot wrote: How about amulet of vigor and charm +2 to str and Cha. I feel like a lot of the rare players could use a way to get an extra figure.

Put it on the list for 2024 or 2025? Would prefer to let whatever TPTB decide what they are doing with int / wis / cha before we start putting out tokens that buff them.

Since we have Valhalla and stus already out there, we know we won't break anything with a +2 to str and Dex or a +2 to str and con rare. If we do +2 Dex and con and +2 ac +2 all saves in the sequence as well, we don't completely obsolete the amulet of the hero until Somewhere around 2025.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #53

  • James
  • James's Avatar
  • Offline
  • 10th Level
  • Supporter
  • Never let me play druid.
  • Posts: 1764

Endgame wrote:

James J Krot wrote: How about amulet of vigor and charm +2 to str and Cha. I feel like a lot of the rare players could use a way to get an extra figure.

Put it on the list for 2024 or 2025? Would prefer to let whatever TPTB decide what they are doing with int / wis / cha before we start putting out tokens that buff them.

Since we have Valhalla and stus already out there, we know we won't break anything with a +2 to str and Dex or a +2 to str and con rare. If we do +2 Dex and con and +2 ac +2 all saves in the sequence as well, we don't completely obsolete the amulet of the hero until Somewhere around 2025.


Year it would give rogue, cleric and druid a second figure, meh I am actually ok with a +2 str and +2 dex more then a the current amulet.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #54

Ian Lee wrote: +1 Assassin's Blade

When I think paladin, I don't think assassin. I doubt there's space, but it would be a thematic change to ditch paladin.

The plethora of rare weapons does mean +2 Arrow got squeezed out, which I don't care specifically about, but it means there's no rare Enchanter's Munition token, which seems a bad idea. Just kidding, I do care about it specifically. +2 Arrow fits with what else is going on, in particular the emphasis on Bows and the rare Quiver. Oh, and Ranger transmutes kind of want ammo, too.

I really doubt someone is going to get perturbed if one of the +1 1h weapons gets ditched, like the bastard sword.

+1 Claymore

Not a reprint, unlike Claymore, but it uses the reprinted uncommon damage wheel as a model when the reprinted damage wheel doesn't make sense.

+1 Heavy Mace

Reprint with different damage wheel.

600 GP Unpilfered Idol

I don't know about this break from recent history. I'd happily get rid of Withering Runestone to restore the usual GP pattern. But, maybe, that has more to do with lack of interest in any Runestones than in GP being smoothed out over three tokens. I guess it's an interesting experiment to see how much complaining there is about gross imbalances in rare values beyond the other gross imbalances in rare values (resurrection potions versus not resurrection potions, for instance).

Amulet of Vigor

I guess I don't feel strongly enough to argue about the size of the stat bumps. But, I do wish there were more +Con/+Dex tokens a la Bracers of Fast Fitness. While neck may deserve a power bump at rare, recent years are very, very STR happy at lower rarities now.

Boots of Shocking Step

When compared against two UR boots, this seems really good. Should make lots of players below UR level happier.

Dust of Mending

Spell could be capitalized.

Mail of Luck

While obviously not Lucky (except for ... nvm), this is exceedingly confusing to print in the same year as the Lucky set. This should either by Lucky or should be Luckless. Lockless Mail, anyone? Okay, then.

Also, if Nether Fate Armor is any guide, seems like a rare would go to AC +3 and +1 Saves, but it's hard to say if this makes sense. If this armor were to be part of a multirarity set, which I think is interesting, though I can see complaints if the only way to set bonus is to get an UR, AC +3 and +1 Saves at rare seems fine. If not part of a set, seems half an AC under.

Potion Heavy Healing

"Cures ..."


Ian - I am really impressed at your attention to detail in finding templating, functional reprint, re-use of the same names etc.. Really nice work and it must have taken a lot of effort.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #55

Xavon wrote:

Chris Wiemer wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Word to the wise: adding lower rarity more powerful new tokens to single slot that are worse than several existing BiS options is not “power creep.”

In fact it directly addressed one of the harmful aspects of power creep - which is a large gap between BiS players and everyone else.
.

+1 This is an excellent point.


If 2/10 players in a party are BiS players, to take the wording, and the other 8 are only red players, improving Rare still increases their power individually and of the party as a whole. Same if they are green players and UCs get better. It is even true if it is 9 BiS players and only one red player. The overall power for the level the player is at is creeping up, as is the total power of the party.

And not every purple player is BiS player, either; if a rare meets or surpasses their UR just because there is another UR that is better, that is still power creep. We are not there yet, but as so many anti-power creep proponents say, it is a slippery slope. You can't just design rares based on the best URs. You have to consider the existing rares (if outdated) and the lowest power URs as well. And to a degree other slots.

I am not necessarily opposed to the Amulet of Vigor as written, I just worry that it is jumping to far.

What if we said if was just +3 to STR? Then it is the rare equivalent of a belt slot, and half the total bonus of Stu's/Champion. What if it was +3 to ability of choice? Still half, but you get flexibility.


Thanks for expressing this Xavon.

From my perspective, I think increasing the stats of the 8 red players in the scenario above is a good thing. I would also agree it's power creep for the party.

I disagree that 'you can't just design rares base on the best URs' - since day 1 URs have been like +1 over rares: +1 to hit and damage, +1 AC, +1 to saves, etc.. It's only been recently (~2014 onwards) that URs have pulled away from rares. This is - in my opinion - not a good thing.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #56

  • Xavon
  • Xavon's Avatar
  • Offline
  • 7th Level
  • Supporter
  • Obligation is the sincerest form of insanity
  • Posts: 3155

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Chris Wiemer wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Word to the wise: adding lower rarity more powerful new tokens to single slot that are worse than several existing BiS options is not “power creep.”

In fact it directly addressed one of the harmful aspects of power creep - which is a large gap between BiS players and everyone else.
.

+1 This is an excellent point.


If 2/10 players in a party are BiS players, to take the wording, and the other 8 are only red players, improving Rare still increases their power individually and of the party as a whole. Same if they are green players and UCs get better. It is even true if it is 9 BiS players and only one red player. The overall power for the level the player is at is creeping up, as is the total power of the party.

And not every purple player is BiS player, either; if a rare meets or surpasses their UR just because there is another UR that is better, that is still power creep. We are not there yet, but as so many anti-power creep proponents say, it is a slippery slope. You can't just design rares based on the best URs. You have to consider the existing rares (if outdated) and the lowest power URs as well. And to a degree other slots.

I am not necessarily opposed to the Amulet of Vigor as written, I just worry that it is jumping to far.

What if we said if was just +3 to STR? Then it is the rare equivalent of a belt slot, and half the total bonus of Stu's/Champion. What if it was +3 to ability of choice? Still half, but you get flexibility.


Thanks for expressing this Xavon.

From my perspective, I think increasing the stats of the 8 red players in the scenario above is a good thing. I would also agree it's power creep for the party.

I disagree that 'you can't just design rares base on the best URs' - since day 1 URs have been like +1 over rares: +1 to hit and damage, +1 AC, +1 to saves, etc.. It's only been recently (~2014 onwards) that URs have pulled away from rares. This is - in my opinion - not a good thing.


Except that's not entirely valid because ability scores take a +2 to get a bonus. Going from a +1 weapon to a +2 weapon is not that equivalent of going from a +2 STR to a +3 STR, it is going from +2 STR to +4 STR. And yes, if you have an odd ability, the odd score would get you an extra bump. But the next item still has to be 2 pt increase to get another bump.
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.
The topic has been locked.

2020 Rare Beta Images 4 years 8 months ago #57

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: +1 Assassin's Blade

When I think paladin, I don't think assassin. I doubt there's space, but it would be a thematic change to ditch paladin.

The plethora of rare weapons does mean +2 Arrow got squeezed out, which I don't care specifically about, but it means there's no rare Enchanter's Munition token, which seems a bad idea. Just kidding, I do care about it specifically. +2 Arrow fits with what else is going on, in particular the emphasis on Bows and the rare Quiver. Oh, and Ranger transmutes kind of want ammo, too.

I really doubt someone is going to get perturbed if one of the +1 1h weapons gets ditched, like the bastard sword.

+1 Claymore

Not a reprint, unlike Claymore, but it uses the reprinted uncommon damage wheel as a model when the reprinted damage wheel doesn't make sense.

+1 Heavy Mace

Reprint with different damage wheel.

600 GP Unpilfered Idol

I don't know about this break from recent history. I'd happily get rid of Withering Runestone to restore the usual GP pattern. But, maybe, that has more to do with lack of interest in any Runestones than in GP being smoothed out over three tokens. I guess it's an interesting experiment to see how much complaining there is about gross imbalances in rare values beyond the other gross imbalances in rare values (resurrection potions versus not resurrection potions, for instance).

Amulet of Vigor

I guess I don't feel strongly enough to argue about the size of the stat bumps. But, I do wish there were more +Con/+Dex tokens a la Bracers of Fast Fitness. While neck may deserve a power bump at rare, recent years are very, very STR happy at lower rarities now.

Boots of Shocking Step

When compared against two UR boots, this seems really good. Should make lots of players below UR level happier.

Dust of Mending

Spell could be capitalized.

Mail of Luck

While obviously not Lucky (except for ... nvm), this is exceedingly confusing to print in the same year as the Lucky set. This should either by Lucky or should be Luckless. Lockless Mail, anyone? Okay, then.

Also, if Nether Fate Armor is any guide, seems like a rare would go to AC +3 and +1 Saves, but it's hard to say if this makes sense. If this armor were to be part of a multirarity set, which I think is interesting, though I can see complaints if the only way to set bonus is to get an UR, AC +3 and +1 Saves at rare seems fine. If not part of a set, seems half an AC under.

Potion Heavy Healing

"Cures ..."


Ian - I am really impressed at your attention to detail in finding templating, functional reprint, re-use of the same names etc.. Really nice work and it must have taken a lot of effort.


+1
Token Conjurer
Geek Dreamweaver
Nerdomancer
Author of the never-to-be-released "The Secret of Trees"
The topic has been locked.
Time to create page: 0.078 seconds