TOPIC: Int, Wis,and Cha?

Brad Mortensen wrote:
The profit from tokens, I’m guessing, is at least five times the profit from tickets, and it’s a lot less hassle. My guess is that’s what allows Jeff & Co to work TD full-time.

The games you listed can be played anywhere, anytime. Not TD. Without events, people have no reason to buy tokens. Without token sales, there’s no way to put on events.

As long as there is profit on ticket sales you could have TD without tokens (though you are correct, you can't have it the other way currently - maybe we need a head to head token game?). It might need to be smaller, fewer props, fewer actors, etc , but it could still exist. Now, with the expansion to other conventions, the capital expense of sets, props, costumes can be spread across more events, likely increasing the profit to be had at on a per con basis.

Don't get me wrong, there is certainly a reason to keep doing tokens if they are selling well, but I don't think you need indefinite slot expansion or indefinite power creep to keep selling tokens or to keep TD profitable.

*edit*
Look at escape rooms for a business plan that could be done that does not need token sales.

Endgame wrote: Look at escape rooms for a business plan that could be done that does not need token sales.

And look at how expensive they are. The room sits in place, unchanged, for months at a time. There is no way to customize your experience, and I’ve never heard of anyone wanting to run the same one more than once, and certainly not a half-dozen times in one weekend. And they still cost more per hour than TD.

TD debuted without tokens but with healthy sponsorships (I.e. lots of cash) from GenCon and WoTC. Or so I’ve heard.

I’m sure you’re right, TD could survive without selling tokens, just as the NFL could survive if they switched to flag football.

But don’t kid yourself. It would be a smaller, less fervent fan-base because it wouldn’t be nearly as interesting or as much fun.

Brad Mortensen wrote: And they still cost more per hour than TD.

That is not necessarily true. The escape rooms in Indy are about $25 for an hour of play. Just saying.

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: And they still cost more per hour than TD.

That is not necessarily true. The escape rooms in Indy are about $25 for an hour of play. Just saying.

During which, what 1 staffer watches you on a security camera. How many vols does the typical TD run take (2 coaches alternating rooms, 1 trainer, 7 gms minimum,probably at least 1 npc in a costume) so like 10 staffers.

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: And they still cost more per hour than TD.

That is not necessarily true. The escape rooms in Indy are about $25 for an hour of play. Just saying.

The last two I was in were $35. So obviously, YMMV

And the interaction with staff was zero. A minute speech before, a couple minutes after, and the one guy watching four rooms at once was handling hints for all of them.

A very, very different experience than TD.

Note: amortization of props across multiple cons sounds good in theory, but in practice the extra loss, breakage, and general wear and tear of rushing to pack, load, unpack, use, then doing it all in reverse four times a year means a lot more things had to be repaired or replaced last year than anticipated. So there’s that.

My point might be getting lost in all the details, so I’ll repeat it: my ignorant estimate says profit from tokens far exceeds the profit from tickets, so eliminating tokens will require a doubling of ticket prices or a drastic reduction in quality.

Don't escape rooms also tend to be pretty static? So, one time investment to build the room and then whatever minor work needs to be done to reset the room between groups. TD, on the other hand, has to redo that investment each year with all new dungeons, new puzzles to solve, more NPCs/DMs to train and full setup/teardown for every event.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: And they still cost more per hour than TD.

That is not necessarily true. The escape rooms in Indy are about $25 for an hour of play. Just saying.

The last two I was in were $35. So obviously, YMMV

And the interaction with staff was zero. A minute speech before, a couple minutes after, and the one guy watching four rooms at once was handling hints for all of them.

A very, very different experience than TD.

Yep not disputing that it is a different experience, just that the price. And I am making no comment on the value. The fact that this will be my 10th year playing TD must mean I find some value in the cost.

Picc wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: And they still cost more per hour than TD.

That is not necessarily true. The escape rooms in Indy are about $25 for an hour of play. Just saying.

During which, what 1 staffer watches you on a security camera. How many vols does the typical TD run take (2 coaches alternating rooms, 1 trainer, 7 gms minimum,probably at least 1 npc in a costume) so like 10 staffers.

Well, without tokens, you could probably do a TD run with 1 GM / NPC to escort you through the dungeon, right? No coaching, minimal to no training, and sliding empty pucks based on class base attributes would be much easier to handle for the NPC escort.

That said, I'm not saying there shouldn't be token sales, just that indefinite expansion isn't required. I'd even top that off by saying that indefinite expansion both in slots and in "numbers" is actually likely worse long therm than just having some kind of caps in place.

Endgame wrote: Tome slot is coming - it was announced with Gregor's Tome of Focus. I don't have the link on hand

link

Endgame wrote: Well, without tokens, you could probably do a TD run with 1 GM / NPC to escort you through the dungeon, right? No coaching, minimal to no training, and sliding empty pucks based on class base attributes would be much easier to handle for the NPC escort.

I don't think there would be less training. Each GM/NPC would need to know how to run combat for each of the rooms and how to operate the puzzles for each room. Current model is having the volunteer learn 1 (or a couple) room(s) really well. That model all volunteers would need to know 7 rooms just as well so as not to lose quality between rooms.

Just realized you meant training of players not the volunteers. Not certain why training of players would be much less without tokens. Assuming the 'empty' pucks still have a damage wheel in them. You would still practice combat the same. You would still practice learning the Planar Chart, Beads, Leaves, and Bardic Symbols the same. I don't remember any trainer ever telling me anything about a token. Coaching I agree would me limited without tokens. Just pick classes and difficulty I imagine.

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote: Well, without tokens, you could probably do a TD run with 1 GM / NPC to escort you through the dungeon, right? No coaching, minimal to no training, and sliding empty pucks based on class base attributes would be much easier to handle for the NPC escort.

I don't think there would be less training. Each GM/NPC would need to know how to run combat for each of the rooms and how to operate the puzzles for each room. Current model is having the volunteer learn 1 (or a couple) room(s) really well. That model all volunteers would need to know 7 rooms just as well so as not to lose quality between rooms.

Just realized you meant training of players not the volunteers. Not certain why training of players would be much less without tokens. Assuming the 'empty' pucks still have a damage wheel in them. You would still practice combat the same. You would still practice learning the Planar Chart, Beads, Leaves, and Bardic Symbols the same. I don't remember any trainer ever telling me anything about a token. Coaching I agree would me limited without tokens. Just pick classes and difficulty I imagine.

Just to be clear I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you endgame, but let's assume we stream lind as much as possible. We would still need 1 coach to get character cards and mark off the two unused classes(we'll drop the assistant who normally resets the rooms, and the second coach), the training room coach has to stay to teach people the game, then we either still need 1 gm per room or 7 npcs to follow the party room to room since all rooms are in use at all times. So still 9 staffers minimum per dungeon at any given time.No NPCs or support staff for now.

Now to your actual point about capping either slot growth, slotless items, or stats. Maybe we could do it from at game perspective, heck one day we might need to in some form, but I dont think we could support those 9 staffers per dungeon × 4 dungeons x 2 shifts (200ish vols at gencon last year from what I understand) without the token revenue or a significant raise in ticket price, to say nothing of the full time staff that works for TD the rest of the year. I could be wrong, I dont have any insider info but I just dont see how it's going to work without yearly token revenue.

Spell damage could be boosted by INT and healing by WIS if you pass the skill check.

Having the skill check be worth 7-10 instead of 3 might make it usable at higher levels.