TOPIC: Int, Wis,and Cha?

kurtreznor wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: Well, if it is so important to have classes stat totals be equal, i will take 70 points as such...
19 STR
17 DEX
15 CON
5 INT
11 WIS
5 CHA

Not sure i even care what class, i will take those stats over any character card defaults. Even with 'only' 70 points.

That these stats are desirable is why many players would like int, wis, and cha to gain more function in the game. And after that rules change, THEN we can update the character cards appropriately and adjust for new stat abilities.

Agree. Let’s look at the Dwarf/Druid comparison. 16 point difference. 8 of those come from Wisdom. (And that can be overcome by a single rare token). Other than Will saves, who cares? 6 of those come from Charisma. It’s not enough to give the Druid a second figurine, so who cares?

That leaves 2 points that make a substantial difference.

When we know what INT, WIS, and CHA do as the class redesign begins, then we can talk about what is meaningful.

Fiddy wrote: Sure, but it does matter when we talk about balancing tokens by limiting access by stats.

Also, it is somewhat unsurprising that the classes that have the highest stats also happen to be the ones that tend to lead the pack on combat damage. If Druid, Monk, and Ranger had a lower starting stats more in line with other classes, maybe it'd be easier to keep tokens balanced.

Monk and Ranger's damage output has very little to do with their stats. It is mostly from their ability to slide two pucks.

Currently though different stats have very different weight in combat. So currently that they are not 'balanced' doesn't matter. Once it is decided what Int, Wis and Cha do then I think you can talk about balancing stats. Because they still might not all be equal. So a 20 in Str may not equal a 20 in Cha.

Figure out what they do, then re-balance the cards as needed. No need to put the cart before the horse.

Endgame wrote: Can we avoid stats being slot expanders? The token mat is already getting silly with the number of slots available for tokens, and the latest update doesn't even have the tome slot on it now.

translation:

DAMNIT guys. I just made all of these starting player guides...

kurtreznor wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: Well, if it is so important to have classes stat totals be equal, i will take 70 points as such...
19 STR
17 DEX
15 CON
5 INT
11 WIS
5 CHA

Not sure i even care what class, i will take those stats over any character card defaults. Even with 'only' 70 points.

That these stats are desirable is why many players would like int, wis, and cha to gain more function in the game. And after that rules change, THEN we can update the character cards appropriately and adjust for new stat abilities.

+1

Boilerplate wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

isauteikisa wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Given the focus items that already add to healing and damage, would additional bonuses be too much? We just had a year where healing was specifically reduced because it was seen as being too powerful.

We haven't seen the full effects of the LoDS nerf // Eldritch changes in play yet. My opinion on whether WIS should have a healing focus effect may well change depending on how things play out this year.

I think 2020 could be a rough year for balance if INT // WIS granted bonuses that year. With the character card revamp coming in 2021, I think that things could be brought better into line there. I'm not concerned about tokens currently - right now, the best you can get INT-wise from tokens is an extra +5 damage, and Wisdom is +4 from the Charm. With a grand total of 4 items (two of which are relic // legendary) that grant bonuses currently, I think that we're fine from a token standpoint if we're just mindful of it moving forward: I think the bigger fix is to "bake in" the starting stats that characters get into the spells from the character cards (in much the same way as starting STR // DEX // CON contribute to the party card stats now) and work from there.

We also either need to reign in the starting stats of certain classes, or bump those that are lagging behind.

For sure!

Comparing the 4th level Dwarf Fighter and Druid from highest to lowest stats:

Dwarf Fighter: 13, 13, 13, 11, 11,  9
Druid:         19, 15, 15, 15, 11, 11
---------------------------------------
Difference:    +6, +2, +2, +2, +0, +2

Yikes!

This is SHOCKING to me. I went and totaled the stats for each class at 4th level and found:
Barbarian 80
Bard 76
Cleric 76
Druid 86
Dwarf 70
Elf 76
Fighter 76
Monk 86
Paladin 76
Ranger 80
Rogue 76
Wizard 76

I suspect that this has been discussed at length somewhere else, but what is the justification for Monk and Druid at 86 being 10 stat points higher than the pack at 76? And 16 higher than the poor Dwarf Fighter? A point or two difference probably makes sense, but wow. And I am sure that if we look deeper at each stat category, the imbalance only gets worse when you consider that not all stats are created equal (e.g., int, wis, and cha have very little game impact). Why aren’t stats allocated with a point buy system where all classes start with the same amount of points?

Today at least, it's not too bad imbalance wise, but if all stats are going to start to matter it might.

Why?

a. Saves on the cards aren't very directly tied to stats.
b. HP on the cards aren't very directly tied to stats.
c. Cards have compensating abilities (e.g. fighters get +2 to hit, rangers get +2 ranged damage, wizards get a dozen or so damage spells).

So basically only STR and DEX really matter on the card, and for those stats we've got:

Non-spell casters:
Barbarian - 17, 13 : 30 total
Dwarf Fighter - 13, 13 : 26
Fighter - 15, 13 : 28
Monk - 15, 15 : 30
Paladin : 11, 13 : 24 (although paladins have 5 support abilities and maybe should be considered casters...)
Ranger: 13, 17 : 30
Rogue: 11, 17 : 28

Spell casters:
Bard - 11, 13 : 24
Cleric - 11, 11 : 22
Druid - 11, 15 : 26
Elf Wizard - 11, 13 : 24


The stat disparity is something that was pointed out before the last character card redesign, and not changed, so I think TPTB like the current balance.

If INT/WIS/CHA are going to start having a substantial game role and get consistent token support, I imagine that would change.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Boilerplate wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

isauteikisa wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Given the focus items that already add to healing and damage, would additional bonuses be too much? We just had a year where healing was specifically reduced because it was seen as being too powerful.

We haven't seen the full effects of the LoDS nerf // Eldritch changes in play yet. My opinion on whether WIS should have a healing focus effect may well change depending on how things play out this year.

I think 2020 could be a rough year for balance if INT // WIS granted bonuses that year. With the character card revamp coming in 2021, I think that things could be brought better into line there. I'm not concerned about tokens currently - right now, the best you can get INT-wise from tokens is an extra +5 damage, and Wisdom is +4 from the Charm. With a grand total of 4 items (two of which are relic // legendary) that grant bonuses currently, I think that we're fine from a token standpoint if we're just mindful of it moving forward: I think the bigger fix is to "bake in" the starting stats that characters get into the spells from the character cards (in much the same way as starting STR // DEX // CON contribute to the party card stats now) and work from there.

We also either need to reign in the starting stats of certain classes, or bump those that are lagging behind.

For sure!

Comparing the 4th level Dwarf Fighter and Druid from highest to lowest stats:

Dwarf Fighter: 13, 13, 13, 11, 11,  9
Druid:         19, 15, 15, 15, 11, 11
---------------------------------------
Difference:    +6, +2, +2, +2, +0, +2

Yikes!

This is SHOCKING to me. I went and totaled the stats for each class at 4th level and found:
Barbarian 80
Bard 76
Cleric 76
Druid 86
Dwarf 70
Elf 76
Fighter 76
Monk 86
Paladin 76
Ranger 80
Rogue 76
Wizard 76

I suspect that this has been discussed at length somewhere else, but what is the justification for Monk and Druid at 86 being 10 stat points higher than the pack at 76? And 16 higher than the poor Dwarf Fighter? A point or two difference probably makes sense, but wow. And I am sure that if we look deeper at each stat category, the imbalance only gets worse when you consider that not all stats are created equal (e.g., int, wis, and cha have very little game impact). Why aren’t stats allocated with a point buy system where all classes start with the same amount of points?

Today at least, it's not too bad imbalance wise, but if all stats are going to start to matter it might.

Why?

a. Saves on the cards aren't very directly tied to stats.
b. HP on the cards aren't very directly tied to stats.
c. Cards have compensating abilities (e.g. fighters get +2 to hit, rangers get +2 ranged damage, wizards get a dozen or so damage spells).

So basically only STR and DEX really matter on the card, and for those stats we've got:

Non-spell casters:
Barbarian - 17, 13 : 30 total
Dwarf Fighter - 13, 13 : 26
Fighter - 15, 13 : 28
Monk - 15, 15 : 30
Paladin : 11, 13 : 24 (although paladins have 5 support abilities and maybe should be considered casters...)
Ranger: 13, 17 : 30
Rogue: 11, 17 : 28

Spell casters:
Bard - 11, 13 : 24
Cleric - 11, 11 : 22
Druid - 11, 15 : 26
Elf Wizard - 11, 13 : 24


The stat disparity is something that was pointed out before the last character card redesign, and not changed, so I think TPTB like the current balance.

If INT/WIS/CHA are going to start having a substantial game role and get consistent token support, I imagine that would change.

That is helpful analysis, Matthew. Thanks.

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we avoid stats being slot expanders? The token mat is already getting silly with the number of slots available for tokens, and the latest update doesn't even have the tome slot on it now.

translation:

DAMNIT guys. I just made all of these starting player guides...

LOL, but, yeah, I'm not even done yet

I think its human nature, or at least DnD player nature, to want to fill all the slots. Most slots don't really have terribly useful commons, so you're really asking people to have to fill 40+ slots with uncommon or better.

The token mat is getting a kid of silly with just how many slots there are beyond what you would normally see in DnD, and it sounds like we are discussing adding potentially 2-3+ slots? (tome, extra bead, based on stats, extra tome, based on stats). How does that factor into coaching as well? If you have a half a dozen players show up with all the slots filled, but not in an app, is there enough time to get through them all?

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we avoid stats being slot expanders? The token mat is already getting silly with the number of slots available for tokens, and the latest update doesn't even have the tome slot on it now.

translation:

DAMNIT guys. I just made all of these starting player guides...

LOL, but, yeah, I'm not even done yet

I think its human nature, or at least DnD player nature, to want to fill all the slots. Most slots don't really have terribly useful commons, so you're really asking people to have to fill 40+ slots with uncommon or better.

The token mat is getting a kid of silly with just how many slots there are beyond what you would normally see in DnD, and it sounds like we are discussing adding potentially 2-3+ slots? (tome, extra bead, based on stats, extra tome, based on stats). How does that factor into coaching as well? If you have a half a dozen players show up with all the slots filled, but not in an app, is there enough time to get through them all?

Tomes are slotless, so having an INT bonus for them doesn't make much sense.

bpsymington wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we avoid stats being slot expanders? The token mat is already getting silly with the number of slots available for tokens, and the latest update doesn't even have the tome slot on it now.

translation:

DAMNIT guys. I just made all of these starting player guides...

LOL, but, yeah, I'm not even done yet

I think its human nature, or at least DnD player nature, to want to fill all the slots. Most slots don't really have terribly useful commons, so you're really asking people to have to fill 40+ slots with uncommon or better.

The token mat is getting a kid of silly with just how many slots there are beyond what you would normally see in DnD, and it sounds like we are discussing adding potentially 2-3+ slots? (tome, extra bead, based on stats, extra tome, based on stats). How does that factor into coaching as well? If you have a half a dozen players show up with all the slots filled, but not in an app, is there enough time to get through them all?

Tomes are slotless, so having an INT bonus for them doesn't make much sense.

Tome slot is coming - it was announced with Gregor's Tome of Focus. I don't have the link on hand, but someone else reading this probably does.

Isn't slot expansion inevitable due to the need to constantly sell more tokens?

There was a time I got into the coaching room and ioun stone slots baffled me as I had never seen any. To me, bead is absurd with greaves pretty bad, as well, but, like a lot of things, just seems like more numbers rather than having RPG flavor.

There's so much that TD paints itself into a silhouette because of the attempt to connect to physical locations on an adventurer. As soon as you Boots of the Four Windsify a location, have to move on to BotFWifying the next location, then the next, then the next, with the open slots being new slots created to delay locking builds (at, admittedly, a certain level of buy in that isn't relevant to a ton of players).

I was looking at really old posts not long ago. TD conversations seemed to be way more thematics oriented with people caring about a character they envisioned for themselves. Most of the concern nowadays is with numbers, whether those are character stats or treasure draws or how many tickets sell.

Now, even putting aside thematic relevance, yes, there is added overhead with more and more slots (just as there is with more and more slotless items - I gave up on bothering to list slotless items that don't affect party cards when I use builders - I won't remember hardly any of the conditional tokens, anyway). But, how can it end given that it has grown organically rather than all being planned in advance to produce more meaningful restraints?

Ian Lee wrote: Isn't slot expansion inevitable due to the need to constantly sell more tokens?

Slot expansion and power creep may be required to sell more tokens to people who already have every slot filled with legendary tokens, but I don't think its required for TD to exist.

Unlike a number of games, TD has monetized playing the game. If you buy magic cards, or Warmachine Miniatures, etc, the sale of that item is essentially the entire source of revenue for the company. Magic makes some cards you have obsolete at a regular interval to force the sale of new cards. Minis games tend to keep creeping power for the duration of an edition to get you to keep spending.

TD has ticket revenue. TPTB could lock down slots, and release nothing more powerful than any existing token and could still make money based on the ticket revenue from people running the dungeons and the sales of tokens to people who haven't already hit the "gear cap".

Ian Lee wrote: There was a time I got into the coaching room and ioun stone slots baffled me as I had never seen any. To me, bead is absurd with greaves pretty bad, as well, but, like a lot of things, just seems like more numbers rather than having RPG flavor.

The more numbers thing amuses me greatly. The obvious end state to this is games where a PC deals 9000(!) damage, but the monster has 2 Million Hit points.

The obvious way to appeal to players who like higher numbers is to cycle releases and slowly increase the numbers, such as:
Year 1 and 2: Mithral plate: 8 AC
Year 3 and 4: Adamantium plate: 9 AC
Year 5 and 6: Dragon Scale Plate 10 AC
Year 7 and 8: Reinforced Mithral plate: 11 AC
Year 9 and 10: Reinforced Adamantium Plate: 12 AC
Year 11 and 12: Reinforced Dragon Scale Plate 13 AC
Year 13 and 14: Fortified Mithral Plate, 14 AC
And so on, endlessly looping and changing the descriptor and making the number larger.

Ian Lee wrote: But, how can it end given that it has grown organically rather than all being planned in advance to produce more meaningful restraints?

Well, it's easy enough to end just by creating a plan. Sketch out exactly where you want it to stop (X slots, Y is BIS for slot Z), and then acknowledge that some players will reach the cap. Or, make some kind of crazy option to create soul bound artifacts that are so expensive that it is unlikely many, if any, will ever be made - I.E. turn in one of every legendary token to create a soul bound artifact that lets you choose to upgrade an existing Legendary with one or two of a few different options (ex: +6 or +1 level or +6 saves, etc)

Endgame wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: Isn't slot expansion inevitable due to the need to constantly sell more tokens?

Slot expansion and power creep may be required to sell more tokens to people who already have every slot filled with legendary tokens, but I don't think its required for TD to exist.

Unlike a number of games, TD has monetized playing the game. If you buy magic cards, or Warmachine Miniatures, etc, the sale of that item is essentially the entire source of revenue for the company. Magic makes some cards you have obsolete at a regular interval to force the sale of new cards. Minis games tend to keep creeping power for the duration of an edition to get you to keep spending.

TD has ticket revenue...

The following is an over-simplified, back-of-the-envelope estimate. It’s little more than a SWAG, based on guessing and zero inside info.

When TD was GenCon-only:

Ticket revenue = $68 x 8400 = $571k
Tokens - GTs appeared in (about) one per 10k, times 40 GT = $400k

This ignores all expenses. I hazard that the expense to put on an event eat up a HUGE portion of the budget. GC’s 10% ticketing fee, hall rental, volunteer perks, driving four semis each way, marketing, props, costumes...

Meanwhile, the profit margin on tokens is huge. They’re cheap to make in huge quantities, based on a quick perusal of Alibaba and other websites.

The profit from tokens, I’m guessing, is at least five times the profit from tickets, and it’s a lot less hassle. My guess is that’s what allows Jeff & Co to work TD full-time.

The games you listed can be played anywhere, anytime. Not TD. Without events, people have no reason to buy tokens. Without token sales, there’s no way to put on events.