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TOPIC: Int, Wis,and Cha?

Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #13

isauteikisa wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Given the focus items that already add to healing and damage, would additional bonuses be too much? We just had a year where healing was specifically reduced because it was seen as being too powerful.


We haven't seen the full effects of the LoDS nerf // Eldritch changes in play yet. My opinion on whether WIS should have a healing focus effect may well change depending on how things play out this year.

I think 2020 could be a rough year for balance if INT // WIS granted bonuses that year. With the character card revamp coming in 2021, I think that things could be brought better into line there. I'm not concerned about tokens currently - right now, the best you can get INT-wise from tokens is an extra +5 damage, and Wisdom is +4 from the Charm. With a grand total of 4 items (two of which are relic // legendary) that grant bonuses currently, I think that we're fine from a token standpoint if we're just mindful of it moving forward: I think the bigger fix is to "bake in" the starting stats that characters get into the spells from the character cards (in much the same way as starting STR // DEX // CON contribute to the party card stats now) and work from there.


We also either need to reign in the starting stats of certain classes, or bump those that are lagging behind.

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Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #14

Fiddy wrote:

isauteikisa wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Given the focus items that already add to healing and damage, would additional bonuses be too much? We just had a year where healing was specifically reduced because it was seen as being too powerful.


We haven't seen the full effects of the LoDS nerf // Eldritch changes in play yet. My opinion on whether WIS should have a healing focus effect may well change depending on how things play out this year.

I think 2020 could be a rough year for balance if INT // WIS granted bonuses that year. With the character card revamp coming in 2021, I think that things could be brought better into line there. I'm not concerned about tokens currently - right now, the best you can get INT-wise from tokens is an extra +5 damage, and Wisdom is +4 from the Charm. With a grand total of 4 items (two of which are relic // legendary) that grant bonuses currently, I think that we're fine from a token standpoint if we're just mindful of it moving forward: I think the bigger fix is to "bake in" the starting stats that characters get into the spells from the character cards (in much the same way as starting STR // DEX // CON contribute to the party card stats now) and work from there.


We also either need to reign in the starting stats of certain classes, or bump those that are lagging behind.


For sure!

Comparing the 4th level Dwarf Fighter and Druid from highest to lowest stats:
Dwarf Fighter: 13, 13, 13, 11, 11,  9
Druid:         19, 15, 15, 15, 11, 11
---------------------------------------
Difference:    +6, +2, +2, +2, +0, +2

Yikes!

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Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #15

Adam Guay wrote: Should we start the discussion about these stats and the bonuses from them to help with token creation for 2020?

no. Hear me out. Since we don’t know what the stats will do designing tokens around those possible ideas seems dangerous to me at worst at best it seems limiting. Dangerous in that we could create a token that will either be too powerful or too weak when the character cards do get reworked for 2021. Or we have worry about certain tokens when the cards are reworked. Limiting in either that we focus on designing tokens forstats we won’t know what they do yet. limiting also in that we may be thinking about stats instead token design (that is not true for all). Just to be clear I am NOT saying we shouldn’t have this conversation now, just that it should not be tied to 2020 token design in any way. 2020 tokens are likely needing to be figured out a whole year before the card redesign.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #16

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

isauteikisa wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Given the focus items that already add to healing and damage, would additional bonuses be too much? We just had a year where healing was specifically reduced because it was seen as being too powerful.


We haven't seen the full effects of the LoDS nerf // Eldritch changes in play yet. My opinion on whether WIS should have a healing focus effect may well change depending on how things play out this year.

I think 2020 could be a rough year for balance if INT // WIS granted bonuses that year. With the character card revamp coming in 2021, I think that things could be brought better into line there. I'm not concerned about tokens currently - right now, the best you can get INT-wise from tokens is an extra +5 damage, and Wisdom is +4 from the Charm. With a grand total of 4 items (two of which are relic // legendary) that grant bonuses currently, I think that we're fine from a token standpoint if we're just mindful of it moving forward: I think the bigger fix is to "bake in" the starting stats that characters get into the spells from the character cards (in much the same way as starting STR // DEX // CON contribute to the party card stats now) and work from there.


We also either need to reign in the starting stats of certain classes, or bump those that are lagging behind.


For sure!

Comparing the 4th level Dwarf Fighter and Druid from highest to lowest stats:
Dwarf Fighter: 13, 13, 13, 11, 11,  9
Druid:         19, 15, 15, 15, 11, 11
---------------------------------------
Difference:    +6, +2, +2, +2, +0, +2

Yikes!


This is SHOCKING to me. I went and totaled the stats for each class at 4th level and found:
Barbarian 80
Bard 76
Cleric 76
Druid 86
Dwarf 70
Elf 76
Fighter 76
Monk 86
Paladin 76
Ranger 80
Rogue 76
Wizard 76

I suspect that this has been discussed at length somewhere else, but what is the justification for Monk and Druid at 86 being 10 stat points higher than the pack at 76? And 16 higher than the poor Dwarf Fighter? A point or two difference probably makes sense, but wow. And I am sure that if we look deeper at each stat category, the imbalance only gets worse when you consider that not all stats are created equal (e.g., int, wis, and cha have very little game impact). Why aren’t stats allocated with a point buy system where all classes start with the same amount of points?

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Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #17

My favorite class is Dwarf Fighter.

Do I care that it’s stats are the lowest of all?

No, I do not.

Nor, IMHO, should you. It’s a team game, it’s not like anyone gets more loot (well, maybe the rogue) or more XP or more anything.

Except maybe more ability to help the party survive and succeed. That, plus fun, is the goal
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last edit: by Harlax.

Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #18

Boilerplate wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

isauteikisa wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Given the focus items that already add to healing and damage, would additional bonuses be too much? We just had a year where healing was specifically reduced because it was seen as being too powerful.


We haven't seen the full effects of the LoDS nerf // Eldritch changes in play yet. My opinion on whether WIS should have a healing focus effect may well change depending on how things play out this year.

I think 2020 could be a rough year for balance if INT // WIS granted bonuses that year. With the character card revamp coming in 2021, I think that things could be brought better into line there. I'm not concerned about tokens currently - right now, the best you can get INT-wise from tokens is an extra +5 damage, and Wisdom is +4 from the Charm. With a grand total of 4 items (two of which are relic // legendary) that grant bonuses currently, I think that we're fine from a token standpoint if we're just mindful of it moving forward: I think the bigger fix is to "bake in" the starting stats that characters get into the spells from the character cards (in much the same way as starting STR // DEX // CON contribute to the party card stats now) and work from there.


We also either need to reign in the starting stats of certain classes, or bump those that are lagging behind.


For sure!

Comparing the 4th level Dwarf Fighter and Druid from highest to lowest stats:
Dwarf Fighter: 13, 13, 13, 11, 11,  9
Druid:         19, 15, 15, 15, 11, 11
---------------------------------------
Difference:    +6, +2, +2, +2, +0, +2

Yikes!


This is SHOCKING to me. I went and totaled the stats for each class at 4th level and found:
Barbarian 80
Bard 76
Cleric 76
Druid 86
Dwarf 70
Elf 76
Fighter 76
Monk 86
Paladin 76
Ranger 80
Rogue 76
Wizard 76

I suspect that this has been discussed at length somewhere else, but what is the justification for Monk and Druid at 86 being 10 stat points higher than the pack at 76? And 16 higher than the poor Dwarf Fighter? A point or two difference probably makes sense, but wow. And I am sure that if we look deeper at each stat category, the imbalance only gets worse when you consider that not all stats are created equal (e.g., int, wis, and cha have very little game impact). Why aren’t stats allocated with a point buy system where all classes start with the same amount of points?


In 1st Edition you rolled all stats. And you didn’t GET to be certain classes unless you rolled well and met the minimum stat requirements.

So I’m going with

Because Gary said so.

And, again, it’s a team game. It’s not like we are trying to balance for PVP.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last edit: by Harlax.

Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #19

Harlax wrote: My favorite class is Dwarf Fighter.

Do I care that it’s stats are the lowest of all?

No, I do not.

Nor, IMHO, should you. It’s a team game, it’s not like anyone gets more loot (well, maybe the rogue) or more XP or more anything.

Well, maybe more ability to help the party survive and succeed. That, plus fun, is the goal


Oh, I get that it is a team game and that fun is the goal. My pal always plays and loves DF and always will, regardless of starting stats. But the last part you say is critical. Being able to help the party is a huge part of the fun. Because of lower starting stats for DF, it is harder (more expensive) for DF to be as helpful to the party as the other classes. Just think about the added expense that DFs have had to incur just to be able to equip the legendary hammer relative to all the other classes. Just one example. Again, if we were just talking about a few points, no big deal. But a 16 point difference just doesn’t make sense to me.

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Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #20

Boilerplate wrote:

Harlax wrote: My favorite class is Dwarf Fighter.

Do I care that it’s stats are the lowest of all?

No, I do not.

Nor, IMHO, should you. It’s a team game, it’s not like anyone gets more loot (well, maybe the rogue) or more XP or more anything.

Well, maybe more ability to help the party survive and succeed. That, plus fun, is the goal


Oh, I get that it is a team game and that fun is the goal. My pal always plays and loves DF and always will, regardless of starting stats. But the last part you say is critical. Being able to help the party is a huge part of the fun. Because of lower starting stats for DF, it is harder (more expensive) for DF to be as helpful to the party as the other classes. Just think about the added expense that DFs have had to incur just to be able to equip the legendary hammer relative to all the other classes. Just one example. Again, if we were just talking about a few points, no big deal. But a 16 point difference just doesn’t make sense to me.


I have and use the Hammer.

If anyone gets to have Hammer envy it’s the Clerics.

And my party was pretty impressed when I landed a 105 point crit with my triple crit ability.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last edit: by Harlax.

Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #21

Well, if it is so important to have classes stat totals be equal, i will take 70 points as such...
19 STR
17 DEX
15 CON
5 INT
11 WIS
5 CHA

Not sure i even care what class, i will take those stats over any character card defaults. Even with 'only' 70 points.
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Last edit: by kurtreznor.

Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #22

kurtreznor wrote: Well, if it is so important to have classes stat totals be equal, i will take 70 points as such...
19 STR
17 DEX
15 CON
5 INT
11 WIS
5 CHA

Not sure i even care what class, i will take those stats over any character card defaults. Even with 'only' 70 points.


That these stats are desirable is why many players would like int, wis, and cha to gain more function in the game. And after that rules change, THEN we can update the character cards appropriately and adjust for new stat abilities.
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Last edit: by kurtreznor.

Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #23

Harlax wrote: My favorite class is Dwarf Fighter.

Do I care that it’s stats are the lowest of all?

No, I do not.

Nor, IMHO, should you. It’s a team game, it’s not like anyone gets more loot (well, maybe the rogue) or more XP or more anything.

Except maybe more ability to help the party survive and succeed. That, plus fun, is the goal


Sure, but it does matter when we talk about balancing tokens by limiting access by stats.

Also, it is somewhat unsurprising that the classes that have the highest stats also happen to be the ones that tend to lead the pack on combat damage. If Druid, Monk, and Ranger had a lower starting stats more in line with other classes, maybe it'd be easier to keep tokens balanced.

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Int, Wis,and Cha? 5 years 2 weeks ago #24

Can we avoid stats being slot expanders? The token mat is already getting silly with the number of slots available for tokens, and the latest update doesn't even have the tome slot on it now.

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