TOPIC: Transmute Ideas Please!

Rather than expanding slots, I'd like to see more choices for best in slot that give new players and veterans different ways to build their PCs so that the Vets don't automatically have vastly more powerful characters and that two different veteran players could play the same class and have radically different approaches (beyond range versus melee and polymorph versus spells). I think the item I've come up with is a good example and would really drive both newer and veteran players to gather everything needed to build this:

Ullr's Hunting Shoes - 5pt relic - foot slot (yes, I know most 5 points are part of a transmute path to legendary - this would be an exception)
Ingredients:
2019 UR Charm of Quick Strike [EDIT] AND 2020 UR item based on hunting or quickness (hunting shoes?)
2019 rare Shoes of Skill
2-3 2020 rare and/or UCs thematically tied to hunting and sneaking
1 of each of all monster bits from 2019 and 2020 or 2020 and 2021
2 Alchemist Ink
1 Argonite
4 Dwarven Steel
2 Elvish Bismuth
2 Enchanter's Munitions
1 Golden Fleece
5 Minotaur Hide
5 Mystic Silk
1 Oil of Enchantment
1 Philosopher's Stone
2,000 GP (does not need to be in reserve bars since the story is about hunting - it would be, thematically, better to be loot found from hunting and killing monsters) (and yes, this is lower than normal 5 pt gold requirement of 5K).

-Note: The ingredients become part of a story about the item - something I think new players would really buy into and help them understand the idea behind transmutes. It can help with story immersion and, frankly, is just cool - with the time constraints on the TD staff, the idea of having a paragraph or two story behind each transmute item in a way that players would see as interesting is a big ask. This time, we help by solving that for them as forum vets. In this case, Ullr is the Norse God of the Hunt - tying directly into the N series. If the item is about being an amazing hunter - building up to that would mean practicing your craft, here - doing runs and gathering monster trophies (that is why the monster trophy requirement for this is so high).

Effect: A pair of boots are enchanted with the essence of stealth and hunting prowess - Any combat in which the PC wins initiative, all PCs wearing these boots surprise their opponents and may take a free full combat round against any and all monsters in the room.
Can be used by any class 1/room and does not stack with a charm of quick strike.

Reasoning: Thematically, it is a fun idea and the rules are already in place for it via the charm of quick strike. It also creates new options for veteran players but at a cost - you wouldn't be able to equip the boots of the four winds. For newer players who cannot get the BoFW except through the secondary market - it's a powerful ability that they could aim to achieve. I could see it being a tough decision for a veteran player to give up a +5 damage and part of an eldritch set for an extra round of combat many combats (especially if you build for high initiative). Mechanically, it's close to the +5 in that if you get 3.5 combats each normally lasting 3 rounds per run, you are giving up just over 52 damage per run. In exchange, you get a single round likely every other combat that does your full damage (say, 60-70 damage for the average nightmare level character - 100+ for Epic characters). Of course, you are giving up 1 of your eldritch items to make that happen as well. It becomes a choice rather than simply best in slot. Mechanically - this might need to be tweaked on frequency of use (1/run might be too limited - maybe 2/run?) It is like the charm of quick strike but works at least 4 times more frequently (since it isn't based on a natural die roll and could be any die roll with enough modifiers or bad monster rolls) and it allows for any actions/a full round.

Thoughts?

Fred

I think it is an interesting idea.

I think your math is off though.

3.5 combats x 3 rounds per combat is 10.5 rounds, x5 damage per hit (from Bot4W) is 52.5 damage one would be giving up.

I could see this idea being worked out, but I already dont like that there can be a round where some players get to act and some dont with Charm of Quick Strike. This seems like it would make it even worse.

The charm of quick strike already established this mechanic that is in effect now. This transmuted item would simply make it more reliable and expand the amount of actions taken. The plus is that DMs wouldn't need to be taught a new mechanic, they would be using an existing one with minor modifications.

You're right, I was off on the math. You are giving up 52.5 damage plus whatever eldritch bonuses (and possibly a slot for people who would then need to use a heroism item for level 5). In exchange, if you got a full free round of combat 2 out of the 3.5 combats (pretty reasonable to expect if you have good initiative bonuses), you would be able to do that much damage. Using my character builds (both with BoFW and without assuming hits so everything is equal), I'd do far more damage with this at Epic level (Monk/Ranger with +30 damage bonuses each slide, Wizard with +25 spell damage, etc) - using my nightmare builds from last year, it is closer to 100 additional damage. That would be my hesitation to have it be every room - likely 1/run puts it at parity for more veteran players.

The idea would be for it to be slightly better than BoFW in combat effectiveness but with the drawback of not having that Eldritch item equipped. This prevents more power creep and allow for new players to do something competitive with the vets but building there a different way.

Fred

Fred K wrote: The charm of quick strike already established this mechanic that is in effect now. This transmuted item would simply make it more reliable and expand the amount of actions taken. The plus is that DMs wouldn't need to be taught a new mechanic, they would be using an existing one with minor modifications.

You're right, I was off on the math. You are giving up 52.5 damage plus whatever eldritch bonuses (and possibly a slot for people who would then need to use a heroism item for level 5). In exchange, if you got a full free round of combat 2 out of the 3.5 combats (pretty reasonable to expect if you have good initiative bonuses), you would be able to do that much damage. Using my character builds (both with BoFW and without assuming hits so everything is equal), I'd do far more damage with this at Epic level (Monk/Ranger with +30 damage bonuses each slide, Wizard with +25 spell damage, etc) - using my nightmare builds from last year, it is closer to 100 additional damage. That would be my hesitation to have it be every room - likely 1/run puts it at parity for more veteran players.

One way to fix that would be level 4 characters could use it every room, level 5 or RoSP characters only 1/run? The idea would be for it to be slightly better than BoFW in combat effectiveness but with the drawback of not having that Eldritch item equipped. This prevents more power creep and allow for new players to do something competitive with the vets but building there a different way.

Fred

I dislike the idea of a token that gets worse if you go up a level. That seems very counter-intuitive to me.

I also question why a token costing 1 UR should be more powerful (potentially) than one that cost 4 URs.

Perhaps both these concerns would be addressed by making it a "whatever comes after Eldritch" multi-year Relic and not adjusting it based on character level?

I do like the idea of making slots more competitive (I'm disappointed that the class-specific transmutes got put into the one slot that has a decent amount of competition).

There's pretty strong precedent for URs or relics to, sometimes, be more powerful in one way than legendaries or Eldritch items. Take the supreme ring of elemental command as an example. If you are limited to 2 ring slots as a wizard (not using the glory items), you are dramatically reducing your damage output (by a minimum of 3 damage). If you went with a glory item, you are giving up +3 from gloves or even more from the neck slot (charm necklace, etc.). Of course, this isn't apples to apples by comparison - it's a defensive item versus offensive.

Perhaps make it 2 UR's - the 2019 Charm of Quick Strike and a 2020 Hunter's Boots. Keep in mind, this isn't just damage. To use this, you are reducing your eldritch set by 1. For many players, that means the BoFW and Kilt combo won't give 5th level anymore. You then have to give up a charm or ring slot and lose damage there. The idea is to create choices that are comparable. This shouldn't cost as much as the BoFW because it doesn't give the eldritch element. It also requires monster tokens akin to the bead transmute now (itself pretty difficult).

You are right about the 4th versus 5th level bit being counter-intuitive, I'll remove that part. The reality is even a new player can get to 5th level in many ways for just a hundred dollars or so. If they become a bigger collector, then they'll likely go eldritch for the level via the kilt and teeth/ring/RoSP or similar or choose the BoFW. The idea is to make it a pretty reasonable choice to go either way.

Fred K wrote: There's pretty strong precedent for URs or relics to, sometimes, be more powerful in one way than legendaries or Eldritch items. Take the supreme ring of elemental command as an example. If you are limited to 2 ring slots as a wizard (not using the glory items), you are dramatically reducing your damage output (by a minimum of 3 damage). If you went with a glory item, you are giving up +3 from gloves or even more from the neck slot (charm necklace, etc.). Of course, this isn't apples to apples by comparison - it's a defensive item versus offensive.

Perhaps make it 2 UR's - the 2019 Charm of Quick Strike and a 2020 Hunter's Boots. Keep in mind, this isn't just damage. To use this, you are reducing your eldritch set by 1. For many players, that means the BoFW and Kilt combo won't give 5th level anymore. You then have to give up a charm or ring slot and lose damage there. The idea is to create choices that are comparable. This shouldn't cost as much as the BoFW because it doesn't give the eldritch element. It also requires monster tokens akin to the bead transmute now (itself pretty difficult).

You are right about the 4th versus 5th level bit being counter-intuitive, I'll remove that part. The reality is even a new player can get to 5th level in many ways for just a hundred dollars or so. If they become a bigger collector, then they'll likely go eldritch for the level via the kilt and teeth/ring/RoSP or similar or choose the BoFW. The idea is to make it a pretty reasonable choice to go either way.

I think you may be underestimating the power level of what you're proposing (that or I'm misunderstanding what you are proposing). What happens when you get a Druid wearing these plus the Cabal Set plus Ring of Spell Storing? They may only pull it off once per dungeon, but they could launch four fully-bonused spells before the monster even acts?

Keep in mind, I'm proposing an item that just expands what is already there. A single charm already exists that allows many classes to do this every combat for a run if a roll of 15 or higher is done on initiative and the party wins initiative. With 3.5 combats every run, it is likely it will kick in at least once (like the item I proposed). My monk and ranger builds personally, are over +20 to hit and more than +30 damage with each attack - sliding twice. Typically, this means an average of around 75 damage most rounds before crits or stunning.

An edge case would be a dwarf getting a crit but this would only happen 5% of the time. Using a deathcleaver, a nightmare/epic level PC (similar to the wizard example) will have better than +20 to hit (meaning hitting most of the time) and +35-+40 damage. A single hit will do an average of 45 damage - crit turning into 135 damage.

You are correct that a wizard likely could do the most damage - that would be be damage bonus plus spell plus MEC then ring of spell storing allowing you do to it again. This is the biggest damage example of use of this item - it would allow for 20 (spell) plus 20 (MEC doubling base damage) plus damage mod (say +20) =60 plus another 60 damage for a total of 120. You couldn't cast again as both the cabal set and ring of spell storing use a free action. The damage mod of +20 takes into account not having the +5 from the boots and losing the eldritch bonus. Of course, to be 5th level without giving up a BiS item or losing a slot somewhere else would mean a RoSP and the kilt.

Adding the same restriction to these boots that exists for the charm of quick strike may make sense (no wizards, druids, rogues, etc.).

Fred

Fred K wrote: Rather than expanding slots, I'd like to see more choices for best in slot that give new players and veterans different ways to build their PCs so that the Vets don't automatically have vastly more powerful characters and that two different veteran players could play the same class and have radically different approaches (beyond range versus melee and polymorph versus spells). I think the item I've come up with is a good example and would really drive both newer and veteran players to gather everything needed to build this:

Ullr's Hunting Shoes - 5pt relic - foot slot (yes, I know most 5 points are part of a transmute path to legendary - this would be an exception)
Ingredients:
2019 UR Charm of Quick Strike [EDIT] AND 2020 UR item based on hunting or quickness (hunting shoes?)
2019 rare Shoes of Skill
2-3 2020 rare and/or UCs thematically tied to hunting and sneaking
1 of each of all monster bits from 2019 and 2020 or 2020 and 2021
2 Alchemist Ink
1 Argonite
4 Dwarven Steel
2 Elvish Bismuth
2 Enchanter's Munitions
1 Golden Fleece
5 Minotaur Hide
5 Mystic Silk
1 Oil of Enchantment
1 Philosopher's Stone
2,000 GP (does not need to be in reserve bars since the story is about hunting - it would be, thematically, better to be loot found from hunting and killing monsters) (and yes, this is lower than normal 5 pt gold requirement of 5K).

-Note: The ingredients become part of a story about the item - something I think new players would really buy into and help them understand the idea behind transmutes. It can help with story immersion and, frankly, is just cool - with the time constraints on the TD staff, the idea of having a paragraph or two story behind each transmute item in a way that players would see as interesting is a big ask. This time, we help by solving that for them as forum vets. In this case, Ullr is the Norse God of the Hunt - tying directly into the N series. If the item is about being an amazing hunter - building up to that would mean practicing your craft, here - doing runs and gathering monster trophies (that is why the monster trophy requirement for this is so high).

Effect: A pair of boots are enchanted with the essence of stealth and hunting prowess - Any combat in which the PC wins initiative, all PCs wearing these boots surprise their opponents and may take a free full combat round against any and all monsters in the room.
Can be used by any class 1/room and does not stack with a charm of quick strike.

Reasoning: Thematically, it is a fun idea and the rules are already in place for it via the charm of quick strike. It also creates new options for veteran players but at a cost - you wouldn't be able to equip the boots of the four winds. For newer players who cannot get the BoFW except through the secondary market - it's a powerful ability that they could aim to achieve. I could see it being a tough decision for a veteran player to give up a +5 damage and part of an eldritch set for an extra round of combat many combats (especially if you build for high initiative). Mechanically, it's close to the +5 in that if you get 3.5 combats each normally lasting 3 rounds per run, you are giving up just over 52 damage per run. In exchange, you get a single round likely every other combat that does your full damage (say, 60-70 damage for the average nightmare level character - 100+ for Epic characters). Of course, you are giving up 1 of your eldritch items to make that happen as well. It becomes a choice rather than simply best in slot. Mechanically - this might need to be tweaked on frequency of use (1/run might be too limited - maybe 2/run?) It is like the charm of quick strike but works at least 4 times more frequently (since it isn't based on a natural die roll and could be any die roll with enough modifiers or bad monster rolls) and it allows for any actions/a full round.

Thoughts?

Fred

Food for though - these will be worse than Charm of Quick Strike if the party looses initiative on roles of 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20.

This can certainly happen at the levels of play where relics appear.

I'm fine with your idea, I'd just tweak it so it's always better than charm of quick strike.

Altough - actually - maybe I'm not fine with this idea . Parties get 3-4 round on the dungeon. If this item effectively makes it so those who don't have it get 1 less round, then you are wearing a token that makes other players stand around not playing. Tokens that make other players stand around not playing are not great from my perspective (for instance, skill re-try tokens).

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think it is an interesting idea.

I think your math is off though.

3.5 combats x 3 rounds per combat is 10.5 rounds, x5 damage per hit (from Bot4W) is 52.5 damage one would be giving up.

I could see this idea being worked out, but I already dont like that there can be a round where some players get to act and some dont with Charm of Quick Strike. This seems like it would make it even worse.

A 5 point relic should be worse than an Eldritch Relic - so I don't think there is a problem with that.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think it is an interesting idea.

I think your math is off though.

3.5 combats x 3 rounds per combat is 10.5 rounds, x5 damage per hit (from Bot4W) is 52.5 damage one would be giving up.

I could see this idea being worked out, but I already dont like that there can be a round where some players get to act and some dont with Charm of Quick Strike. This seems like it would make it even worse.

A 5 point relic should be worse than an Eldritch Relic - so I don't think there is a problem with that.

Agreed, but was just pointing out the error.

Also, I agree with you. Standing around waiting because you don't have boots you can't wear is not fun.

Fred K wrote: Keep in mind, I'm proposing an item that just expands what is already there. A single charm already exists that allows many classes to do this every combat for a run if a roll of 15 or higher is done on initiative and the party wins initiative. With 3.5 combats every run, it is likely it will kick in at least once (like the item I proposed). My monk and ranger builds personally, are over +20 to hit and more than +30 damage with each attack - sliding twice. Typically, this means an average of around 75 damage most rounds before crits or stunning.

An edge case would be a dwarf getting a crit but this would only happen 5% of the time. Using a deathcleaver, a nightmare/epic level PC (similar to the wizard example) will have better than +20 to hit (meaning hitting most of the time) and +35-+40 damage. A single hit will do an average of 45 damage - crit turning into 135 damage.

You are correct that a wizard likely could do the most damage - that would be be damage bonus plus spell plus MEC then ring of spell storing allowing you do to it again. This is the biggest damage example of use of this item - it would allow for 20 (spell) plus 20 (MEC doubling base damage) plus damage mod (say +20) =60 plus another 60 damage for a total of 120. You couldn't cast again as both the cabal set and ring of spell storing use a free action. The damage mod of +20 takes into account not having the +5 from the boots and losing the eldritch bonus. Of course, to be 5th level without giving up a BiS item or losing a slot somewhere else would mean a RoSP and the kilt.

Adding the same restriction to these boots that exists for the charm of quick strike may make sense (no wizards, druids, rogues, etc.).

Fred

Just because we are expanding what already exists doesnt mean we should just let it go.
6/20 plus winning initiative for some classes isnt the same as what you're proposing.

I think there is potential here, it just needs refinement.

What is the expected miss rate at Nightmare / Epic? Depending on miss rate it might be possible that boots that provided the ability to re-slide (1/combat), might achieve the same goal as Ullr's Hunting Shoes. A re-slide would also likely be an ability sought out by crit fishing builds.

Re-slide mechanics would alleviate the issue where only part of the party acts on a turn.