TOPIC: Electronic tickets

Mongo wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Amorgen Burke wrote: If only we could have our signed waiver on file and once we've electronically signed it, never have to do it again unless the waiver changes.

This would save a TON of paper and pens and time. Then you could show on your phone that you have signed the waiver.

8000 waivers per Con, per year going forward. Presumably retained until the statute of limitations runs for that year. That's a hell of a lot of paper to store and manage.

And in Wisconsin, the waiver may not be all that effective anyway.
www.axley.com/publication_article/waivers-of-liability-are-they-worth-the-paper-they-are-written-on/
www.hallrender.com/2013/05/16/wave-goodbye-to-liability-waiver-enforceability-in-wisconsin/
www.sportwaiver.com/wisconsin-supreme-court-reinforces-its-stand-against-the-enforcement-of-waivers/

I think you are missing the point on why they were determined invalid and uninforceable.

The courts have said that people cannot be forced to sign away their inalienable rights in cases of gross negligence. In the links you provided, the fitness center was found negligent... not installing the equipment properly... therefore the injury was found preventable therefore the user could sue due to the fitness center’s negligence.

I don’t know of any legal jurisdiction where a person can sign away their rights when the other party has been found grossly negligent (also sometimes known as against public policy, what expectation a reasonable and prudent person would have).

Even in Wisconsin they have been found enforceable when the person signing the waiver didn’t disclose all their information, were stupid or careless, or had a medical condition that caused themselves to be at higher risk for said activity, or even another third party at the establishment caused harm that the establishment could in no way have foreseen and prevented, and the liability waivers did protect the establishment.

One of my many hobbies is teaching scuba diving— one of the few activities my disability doesn’t hamper. I am required by my profesional liability insurance company and even the dive agencies I teach for to have my students sign a liability release waiver (including a medical questioner that may cause me to require them to have a medical doctor sign as well)... and except in cases where the instructor or other listed agency has been negligent (gross negligence), they are enforceable and do protect the instuctor, pool owner, dive store, open water site, etc.

I attend yearly meetings where this is discussed and analyses in detail.

In the above, all three places talk about “gross negligence” not being protected by liability waivers.

Waivers do protect against silly lawsuits— someone trips over their own two feet and gets a boo-boo. If the agency did everything a reasonable and prudent person would do to make that place safe, they would be protected... but if, say, an electric cord was not taped down and said person tripped, no waiver would protect them, no matter how ridiculously worded the waiver was written to protect them against even this specific type of occurrence.

In my professional life I have been involved in liability waivers complications as well... and courts do uphold them... again provided no gross negligence can be proven. I have personally seen court cases thrown out in the first hearing where the courts upheld the liability release waivers... as well as allowing cases to proceed to see if the injured party could prove gross negligence. I have also seen it go both ways where the injured party paid all court expenses when they lost, as well as having each party pay their own expenses... even though the waiver stated the suing party has to pay both sides regardless if they won or loss...

To say they are worthless is a little careless in my opinion... if I don’t have a student sign a form I am in risk of loosing everything I own even if they are injured due to something that is completely their own fault... their next of kin could sue me and take me to the cleaners... but if I do have all my T’s dotted and I’s crossed (lol), my liability insurance will protect me from frivolous law suits in our sadly sue-happy world. And even if I were to loose, I would be covered by my insurance.

True Adventures (and even GenCon) need the waivers signed to protect themselves. The waivers also explain the risks involved in the activities. They need to show that they are using a system that does all they can reasonably do to get every participant to sign their own waiver (with adult co-signing if underage)... and if they can prove this, even if a single person finds a way to bypass signing and is then injured due to their own stupidity, they would be protected.

Just my 1 and a 1/2 cents worth...

The court set out three tests.

The current system fails the first test as it is a take it or leave it document with no opportunity to negotiate.

The second test is the one you are citing.

Lori Martin wrote: Once we see the demo we will have a better idea of what we're looking at, BUT...my understanding is that if you bought 10 tickets for an event, we will scan YOUR badge and then the other 9 players badges before sending you in. If you don't all show up together, the person that bought the tickets will have to wait out front for the remaining players, as the buyer's badge gets scanned and THEN the other players.

Lori

Or have their badge scanned a few extra times to ghost a spot or few (up to 5)? Just want to make sure you guys are still asking about that.

Yes I have a non full run at present, but more liklely my saturday morning run will have someone no show and i would rather run with 8 of my friends then introduce a random to the mix.

Lori Martin wrote: Mike and I will be on a teleconference with Gen Con this week for a demo of the new system. I have read through their eticket FAQ and have a list of questions that I'll ask if they're not answered in the demo and discussions.

We are trying to do everything we can to make this as smooth as possible. We're working with Gen Con and LOS to get wired internet access for our terminals so that we don't have to rely on cellular connectivity underground.

Once we see the demo we will have a better idea of what we're looking at, BUT...my understanding is that if you bought 10 tickets for an event, we will scan YOUR badge and then the other 9 players badges before sending you in. If you don't all show up together, the person that bought the tickets will have to wait out front for the remaining players, as the buyer's badge gets scanned and THEN the other players.

Hopefully we'll know more after our demo. Hang in there gang! Don't go straight to nuclear. We are working on this and will know more soon.

Lori

Logistics suggestion: pleaae allow people to get to coaching rooms without wristbands. If i bought a run and arrive 30 minutes early, i would like to check in the few early-birds and go to coach room with them. As we start to sort things out (such as tokens), it would be easiest for the other players to come to me in the coach room. I could then go back out to the checkin desk to get them their wristband.

kurtreznor wrote:
Logistics suggestion: pleaae allow people to get to coaching rooms without wristbands. If i bought a run and arrive 30 minutes early, i would like to check in the few early-birds and go to coach room with them. As we start to sort things out (such as tokens), it would be easiest for the other players to come to me in the coach room. I could then go back out to the checkin desk to get them their wristband.

Yes, so very much this,

Keep in mind people who do back to back runs this will be headache, I'm hoping we've increased checkin stations to accommodate fact that we'll have multiple groups queuing outside.

Personal/selfish example, I bought a full run that that starts about 30min past my volunteer shift, i much rather be able to tell my group gather in our coaching room and i'll join them for checkin soon as i get off shift figuring in case of delay or time spent turning in radio/etc that starts cutting real close. I expect to have my group prebuilt but still inevitable we need time in coaching as players.

Would also like current word on ghosting and if we're able to or not with e-tickets.

I don't know if ghosting has been resolved or not. I thought the GenCon forum threads said that it could be done but that may not be correct. I do have a run where I planned to ghost 5 slots. If I can't do that, I need to know in the next week or so in order to fill up those slots.

Fred

The ghosting rules are now universal. No more yes at some cons but no at others.

Druegar wrote: The ghosting rules are now universal. No more yes at some cons but no at others.

So perhaps you could repost them or at least a link to the thread in which that was finalized????????

Bob Chasan wrote:

Druegar wrote: The ghosting rules are now universal. No more yes at some cons but no at others.

So perhaps you could repost them or at least a link to the thread in which that was finalized????????

I also remember this being official before origins.

BUT, the trick here isnt TD policy, but how will it be done with the new e-ticket system at gencon. I fear for jeff, because if the gencon system is too strict, he may decide he has to take a hit to allow our 5-person runs...as in, jeff might feel obligated to allow someone with all 10 tickets to only scan in 5, but give them the benefits of all 10. If gencon requires a unique badge for each ticket, jeff wont get credit for ghosts.

Bob Chasan wrote: perhaps you could repost them or at least a link to the thread in which that was finalized????????

I would, but I'm at work and have limited time. When I searched before, I couldn't find the final form. I think I have a copy at home.

kurtreznor wrote: I also remember this being official before origins.

'twas

Ghosting Rules
In most circumstances, when the full complement of 10 players has not arrived before the official start time, we attempt to fill the group from players on the waiting list. However, there are exceptions.

Some groups prefer to play their adventure with less than 10 people but still maintain a “full” party. This is colloquially known as “ghosting.” Ghosting is permissible at all TD-attended conventions as long as all of these parameters are adhered to:

• All 10 hard tickets must be purchased by one or more players in the group. They may not pay for the runs with generic tickets. A hard ticket is a single ticket that specifies the exact date and time of the event the participant paid for. A hard ticket isn’t necessarily a physical item. At some conventions, electronic tickets are utilized.
  Note: The aforementioned rule for hard tickets only applies to groups deliberately running with less than 10 people. Players who fill in an incomplete party off the waiting list may pay with generic tickets.
• All 10 hard tickets must be turned in.
• All 10 wristbands must be put on members of that group. E.g., if a group chooses to run their adventure with eight people, two players would each wear two wristbands or one player would wear three wristbands. Determining which player(s) wear the extra wristband(s) is decided by the hard ticket holder(s).
• Up to 10 bags of tokens will be distributed to the group, as determined by who is wearing the extra wristband(s). E.g., if a group chooses to run their adventure with eight people, two players would each receive two bags of tokens or one player would receive three bags of tokens. It’s up to the hard ticket holder(s) to decide how the extra bags are allotted.
  Note: Even if the party is comprised of more than five Ghost players, no more than five token bags will be given to Ghost characters.
• No matter how many wristbands a player is wearing, no person may play more than one character. So yes, someone could buy all 10 slots and solo the dungeon, but that person may only play a single character, not ten.
• Only Treasure-Enhancing (TE) or Synergistic tokens may be "equipped" on Ghost characters.
  Note: Ghost characters cannot duplicate a class currently being played by a real person. E.g., if the party contains a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, and Wizard, no Ghost character can equip a Cabal item because none of the remaining classes are eligible to equip a Cabal item.
• Even though the maximum number of Ghost characters on a run is nine, no more than five Ghost characters may receive any Treasure Chip bonus. All Ghost characters can equip TEs if they wish, but only five Ghost characters will receive any Treasure Chips.
  Example 1: If one person buys out the slot of all 10 tickets, five of the Ghost characters can have a number entered in the Total Treasure calls on the Party Card, but four will be left blank. The real player's TE bonus will, of course, be that of the actual solo player. Synergistic TEs on non-eligible Ghosts count towards the synergy bonus on the eligible Ghosts. E.g., if someone solos the dungeon with 10 Charms of Avarice, only five Ghosts will get Treasure Chips, but the CoA bonus for those five Ghosts will be at its max.
  Example 2: The party consists of five real players and five Ghost players. In this case, all 10 characters can have a number entered into Total Treasure on the Party Card.
• Like token bags and Treasure Chips, Completion Token reward(s) for Ghosts are capped at five, even if the party is comprised of more than five Ghost characters. If the game is being played on Nightmare difficulty, up to five Ghosts can earn both the Uncommon and Rare Completion Tokens. For all other difficulties, up to five Rare or Uncommon Completions Tokens—as dictated by that particular difficulty’s reward for a real person—will be awarded to Ghost characters.
• 6th-level (or higher) players get one extra Treasure Chip for each wristband they’re wearing, up to a maximum of five Ghosts per party. E.g., a 6th-level player soloing the dungeon would receive +6 Treasure Chips for being 6th-level (one for being a real person and five for the Ghosts), in addition to whatever other bonuses that person was entitled to.
• Remember, each party is limited to a maximum of five Ghost characters and five sets of Ghost rewards. This includes token bags, Treasure Chips, and Completion Tokens. Survivor Badges are only rewarded to real people—Ghosts do not get any Survivor Badges.

Thank you for reposting this.

Gencon is unique in using an eticket system that hasn’t been tested and they were unaware of the TD use cases including things like ghosting. Officially, Gencon requires a unique convention badge for each ticket bought to be , you could only ghost if you broke Gencon’s official rules and had 5 extra badges with you.

We can create a work-around by having several of us buy extra badges and just leave them wtih TD to scan those for the events. If their system doesn’t detect simultanrous events being redeemed, we could get by with just 5 extra badges, if their system borks at an attendee badge being scanned on two runs with conflicting times, we would need quite a few - so many that it could be a problem (every run of all variations for a two hour period would need to have at least 5 badges if that were the case)(meaning 3-4 runs happening simultaneously for each path (n1, n2, etc) and a new run happening every 6 minutes works out to 300 extra badges needed to cover it all in a worst case scenario). From what we’ve heard, if they can’t handle basic testing, they didn’t create complex rules and 5-10 extra badges would meet the needs.

The next problems is not being able to transfer tickets so that 1 person being late or having back to back runs means nobody in that person’s group who bought multiple tickets can be let in. Imagine entire runs bought out by someone with a back to back run. Run two results in the entire group having to go through the prep/character design area in less than 5 minutes, Coaches - get ready for speed writing.

We can do a couple work arounds here. One is organized groups should really have the entire group printd out to just hand to the coach for speed. Second is possibly leaving a player’s badge with the TD front desk then having them scan in anyone who says they are part of that person’s party (this would help with the back to back runs). I don’t have a good solution for a group ticket holder just running late other than letting the players into coaching without scanning them in on just good faith.

The last issue is the most likely to get fixed - I would ge surprised if Gencon didn’t step up to guarantee some level of hardwired wifi access for TD or to provide a cache mode to collect data when signal is poor. Forcing etickets in a concrete covered basement then not providing reliable ways to get that eticket would be a massive oversight, That ine, unfortunately, is the biggest danger for Jeff and Lori. It could result in them not getting paid for the tickets bought because it cannot be proven they were redeemed.

Crossing our fingers the web demo looks strong and that Gencon resolves the remaining challenges.

Fred