TOPIC: Melee Damage in 2020

Kakitahan wrote:

Fred K wrote: Rogue with assassin’s crossbow does more damage.

Fred

Do you know, if you equip nightshade's but don't use it for sneak attack (rather a ranged weapon), is the sneak attack damage still doubled if crit is confirmed?

No. See TokenDB for Nightshade. Says, "If the rogue uses this weapon to perform a sneak attack..."

Using the ranged weapon would not provide it.

Ed

Matthew Hayward wrote: Thanks Jake, this is super great!

I might change the hit/crit rates on Rangers to match monks.

To Ed's point of surviviability, if someone has the stomach for it, it would be interesting to see how the builds shake out under somewhat "realistic" assumptions, namely:

1. Charm of Avarice, Ioun Stone Silver Nugget, Ioun Stone Gold Nugget equipped in all builds.

2. Some minimal survivability - say the build wants to get to at least: 22 AC, +10 to all saves, either 40 HP and Charm of Synergy/Awakened Synergy or 50 HP.

My gut sense is that doing this will not change things much, it will probably bring down all classes about -2/-4 or so, I'm not sure if it will switch around classes but it might narrow some gaps.

I would like to see the results.

Regarding #2 - If you are at AC 22 you might as well not have even tried. I think you will see some renewed focus on AC in the future. I would say the same thing about +10 Saves. That will likely mean you need to roll very high to save if not a 20.

My prediction is Nightmare will be more difficult and Epic much more difficult. Just my $0.013 (after taxes).

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Thanks Jake, this is super great!

I might change the hit/crit rates on Rangers to match monks.

To Ed's point of surviviability, if someone has the stomach for it, it would be interesting to see how the builds shake out under somewhat "realistic" assumptions, namely:

1. Charm of Avarice, Ioun Stone Silver Nugget, Ioun Stone Gold Nugget equipped in all builds.

2. Some minimal survivability - say the build wants to get to at least: 22 AC, +10 to all saves, either 40 HP and Charm of Synergy/Awakened Synergy or 50 HP.

My gut sense is that doing this will not change things much, it will probably bring down all classes about -2/-4 or so, I'm not sure if it will switch around classes but it might narrow some gaps.

I would like to see the results.

Regarding #2 - If you are at AC 22 you might as well not have even tried. I think you will see some renewed focus on AC in the future. I would say the same thing about +10 Saves. That will likely mean you need to roll very high to save if not a 20.

My prediction is Nightmare will be more difficult and Epic much more difficult. Just my $0.013 (after taxes).

Ed

In what I have seen Nightmare is pretty well situated and the intended groups do well there. The issue as I have seen is epic geared players complaining about nightmare being too easy. Which is like nightmare geared players complaining about hardcore being too easy or hardcore players complaining about normal being too easy.

If you are not playing on the hardest difficulty available, I am not sure why one would complain about things being too easy. Step up a level.

jpotter wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Thanks Jake, this is super great!

I might change the hit/crit rates on Rangers to match monks.

To Ed's point of surviviability, if someone has the stomach for it, it would be interesting to see how the builds shake out under somewhat "realistic" assumptions, namely:

1. Charm of Avarice, Ioun Stone Silver Nugget, Ioun Stone Gold Nugget equipped in all builds.

2. Some minimal survivability - say the build wants to get to at least: 22 AC, +10 to all saves, either 40 HP and Charm of Synergy/Awakened Synergy or 50 HP.

My gut sense is that doing this will not change things much, it will probably bring down all classes about -2/-4 or so, I'm not sure if it will switch around classes but it might narrow some gaps.

I would like to see the results.

Regarding #2 - If you are at AC 22 you might as well not have even tried. I think you will see some renewed focus on AC in the future. I would say the same thing about +10 Saves. That will likely mean you need to roll very high to save if not a 20.

My prediction is Nightmare will be more difficult and Epic much more difficult. Just my $0.013 (after taxes).

Ed

In what I have seen Nightmare is pretty well situated and the intended groups do well there. The issue as I have seen is epic geared players complaining about nightmare being too easy. Which is like nightmare geared players complaining about hardcore being too easy or hardcore players complaining about normal being too easy.

If you are not playing on the hardest difficulty available, I am not sure why one would complain about things being too easy. Step up a level.

So long as all difficulty levels are available, I agree with you.

I also am not sure what level of token collector (other than normal) the different difficulty levels are geared toward.

If normal is a party of 10 players with 10 packs, trading and cooperation, where do Hardcore and NM fall, assuming Epic is mostly relic + with cooperation?

Take EPIC away (see Origins) and NM being too easy is a reasonable complaint.

Also, Ed, I agree that AC 22 is a joke, and hardly worthy of bothering to achieve.

This analysis is based on the assumption that there is only a 5% difference in hit rate between Monk/Ranger and all other classes. In my view, this does not reflect the practical reality. #1 It's harder to slide with two pucks. #2 Monk/Ranger frequently slide first and are knocked out of hits or crits by other players.

Assuming a 20% difference in hit rate, for example, would give pretty significantly different results.

The basis for dual wielding being balanced the way things are is that the hit rate with two pucks is lower. If you assume that's not the case, you'll of course arrive at a conclusion that it's way OP.

On the OP's math, Barbarian out-damages dual-wielding Ranger already (without accounting for its significantly higher hit rate). Barbarian also has more HP and therefore more survivability. By this logic folks should be arguing Barbarian needs a nerf too

I don't think anyone's going to disagree that Fighter, which has limited utility and no significant advantage over other sliding classes, needs some love. However, that shouldn't be the baseline for a comparison. Perhaps we should instead be talking about how to help Fighter and Dwarf Fighter...

Their upcoming class legendary should help fighters.

In my experience, while it is harder to slide 2 rather than 1, and monks and rangers are different, their hit ratios are quite close to the same as everyone else's.
In a teamwork game, people leave crits alone.
Is a rogue flanking?
Is there bardsong? Prayer? Bless?
Hits aren't that hard to come by.

jpotter wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Thanks Jake, this is super great!

I might change the hit/crit rates on Rangers to match monks.

To Ed's point of surviviability, if someone has the stomach for it, it would be interesting to see how the builds shake out under somewhat "realistic" assumptions, namely:

1. Charm of Avarice, Ioun Stone Silver Nugget, Ioun Stone Gold Nugget equipped in all builds.

2. Some minimal survivability - say the build wants to get to at least: 22 AC, +10 to all saves, either 40 HP and Charm of Synergy/Awakened Synergy or 50 HP.

My gut sense is that doing this will not change things much, it will probably bring down all classes about -2/-4 or so, I'm not sure if it will switch around classes but it might narrow some gaps.

I would like to see the results.

Regarding #2 - If you are at AC 22 you might as well not have even tried. I think you will see some renewed focus on AC in the future. I would say the same thing about +10 Saves. That will likely mean you need to roll very high to save if not a 20.

My prediction is Nightmare will be more difficult and Epic much more difficult. Just my $0.013 (after taxes).

Ed

In what I have seen Nightmare is pretty well situated and the intended groups do well there. The issue as I have seen is epic geared players complaining about nightmare being too easy. Which is like nightmare geared players complaining about hardcore being too easy or hardcore players complaining about normal being too easy.

If you are not playing on the hardest difficulty available, I am not sure why one would complain about things being too easy. Step up a level.

Agreed. Nightmare is not "too easy". People that are Epic-capable are running on Nightmare (possibly due to having difficulty putting an Epic run together).

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Their upcoming class legendary should help fighters.

Given that the issue shows up at all gear levels, I'm not sure that the Legendary should be the solution.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: In my experience, while it is harder to slide 2 rather than 1, and monks and rangers are different, their hit ratios are quite close to the same as everyone else's.

I think you are correct, but I think there is a caveat. As a Ranger I personally rarely get critical hits. I don't even aim for them. When I hit on say 12+ then it is much safer to just go for two hits than try to get critical hits, especially since many times it would be virtually impossible to get both pucks on a 20.

As a DM I also think that Monks and Rangers get fewer critical hits than say Rogue, Barbarian, and Dwarf Fighter. I think that's the nature of sliding two pucks.

For this reason, and because of the Legendary, I am considering moving to Ranged-focus Ranger build. I'll be curious to see how well I slide if I start aiming for the 20.

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Their upcoming class legendary should help fighters.

Given that the issue shows up at all gear levels, I'm not sure that the Legendary should be the solution.

I'd argue that gear shouldn't "fix" a character anyway.

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Thanks Jake, this is super great!

I might change the hit/crit rates on Rangers to match monks.

To Ed's point of surviviability, if someone has the stomach for it, it would be interesting to see how the builds shake out under somewhat "realistic" assumptions, namely:

1. Charm of Avarice, Ioun Stone Silver Nugget, Ioun Stone Gold Nugget equipped in all builds.

2. Some minimal survivability - say the build wants to get to at least: 22 AC, +10 to all saves, either 40 HP and Charm of Synergy/Awakened Synergy or 50 HP.

My gut sense is that doing this will not change things much, it will probably bring down all classes about -2/-4 or so, I'm not sure if it will switch around classes but it might narrow some gaps.

I would like to see the results.

Regarding #2 - If you are at AC 22 you might as well not have even tried. I think you will see some renewed focus on AC in the future. I would say the same thing about +10 Saves. That will likely mean you need to roll very high to save if not a 20.

My prediction is Nightmare will be more difficult and Epic much more difficult. Just my $0.013 (after taxes).

Ed

What AC and saves target would you recommend?

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: In my experience, while it is harder to slide 2 rather than 1, and monks and rangers are different, their hit ratios are quite close to the same as everyone else's.

I think you are correct, but I think there is a caveat. As a Ranger I personally rarely get critical hits. I don't even aim for them. When I hit on say 12+ then it is much safer to just go for two hits than try to get critical hits, especially since many times it would be virtually impossible to get both pucks on a 20.

As a DM I also think that Monks and Rangers get fewer critical hits than say Rogue, Barbarian, and Dwarf Fighter. I think that's the nature of sliding two pucks.

For this reason, and because of the Legendary, I am considering moving to Ranged-focus Ranger build. I'll be curious to see how well I slide if I start aiming for the 20.

Pro tip: aim for the 18 instead (with Io’s or Thor’s).