TOPIC: Token Point System

Impressive amount of thought and analysis put in to this. Do to my weekly work time crunch I won't be able to "deep dive" into John's system until the weekend but so far I like what I see. Would definitely be willing to give this a go and do some points totalled themed runs at GHC and Origins

Harlax wrote: I think you will find that XP is nearly as controversial as Treasure and power creep.

If people want to try this as a personal challenge, fine. Similar things have already been done.

But the pace of XP gain has already ramped up more than enough with the addition of a third dungeon.

Agree.

XP comes up from time to time, and is a very hotly debated topic.

I suggest taking this but instead of applying it to XP, make a leaderboard out of it. You get points based on your survival rate and difficulty. You lose points based on how good your builds are.

For example, my group goes in using a fully party card printed from tdcharactercreator.com (perhaps a requirement for this) which gives a total points of our cumulative builds at say 10,000.

We play Nightmare. 2 people die it room 6. 2 people die in room 7.

Final score is (for example) 300 (for NM) times 6 (players) times 7 (rooms), plus 300 times 2 (players) times 6 (rooms), plus 300 times 2 (players) times 5 (rooms). That's 19,200 points, minus the build, means our score is 9,200.

Mechanically, this might simply require a box and a stapler in the epilogue room. Perhaps you must have a pre-printed party card from an app that includes your build points on it. You staple that to your party card in the Epilogue room, write your team name somewhere, and put it in the box. After the convention, a volunteer goes through those and turns them into a leaderboard post. No rewards other than knowing where your team ended up on the leaderboard.

Kirk Bauer wrote:
(Details)
...simply...leaderboard...put it in the box... After the convention, a volunteer...

“Everything is simple for the guy who doesn’t have to do it himself.” Who supplies staplers? Who hosts the leaderboard? What box? What volunteer?

If people want to do this independently and without any official TD support, then awesome. I’m all for it, might even try it.

But if any of this is sponsored or supported or underwritten by TD servers (other than a player-run thread on the forum), or clutters up the epilogue room, or requires TD-paid volunteers, then you lost me completely.

OBTW, who is going to set up and manage all the other leaderboards? Green with Envy, Turkey Leg, Naked Dagger, Sealed, etc...

See “rabbit hole.”

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:
(Details)
...simply...leaderboard...put it in the box... After the convention, a volunteer...

“Everything is simple for the guy who doesn’t have to do it himself.” Who supplies staplers? Who hosts the leaderboard? What box? What volunteer?

If people want to do this independently and without any official TD support, then awesome. I’m all for it, might even try it.

But if any of this is sponsored or supported or underwritten by TD servers (other than a player-run thread on the forum), or clutters up the epilogue room, or requires TD-paid volunteers, then you lost me completely.

OBTW, who is going to set up and manage all the other leaderboards? Green with Envy, Turkey Leg, Naked Dagger, Sealed, etc...

See “rabbit hole.”

At least at GenCon this year all of the epilogue desks were together, so yes TD could provide a bin to put your card with a sign and a stapler. There was plenty of room, at least at GenCon. By volunteer I don't mean an official one. I'd be happy to do it. And yes, just a forum thread.

Nor is this organized types of challenger runs. It is one leaderboard based on the points system. You can certainly do a Turkey Leg run and your build will be very minimal earning you a pretty high score if you succeed. Sealed pack not so much because of my pre-printed party card requirement.

Kirk Bauer wrote:
...so yes TD could provide a bin to put your card with a sign and a stapler...

Or your “Gladiator Guild” or whatever you want to call it can provide all that, and ask TD for permission to take up 2 square feet of floor space to set it up.

TD has a lot going on setting up everything else. I wouldn’t want to ask them to be distracted setting up anything else, especially when it will only be used by maybe 2% of the population.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:
...so yes TD could provide a bin to put your card with a sign and a stapler...

Or your “Gladiator Guild” or whatever you want to call it can provide all that, and ask TD for permission to take up 2 square feet of floor space to set it up.

TD has a lot going on setting up everything else. I wouldn’t want to ask them to be distracted setting up anything else, especially when it will only be used by maybe 2% of the population.

If TD could simply put out a box and make 2% of the population extremely happy, shouldn't they? Assuming permission were granted, of course.

I think the leaderboard idea has merit.

I think the XP idea does not. There would surely be a ripple effect with unintended consequences. The system in place makes sense - regardless of what tokens the party is equipped with. I'd be curious to know how many casual fans even care about XP.

Anecdotal - my buddy who got me into TD ran for 3 or 4 years before he got me into it. I've run with him 3 years now now and I just convinced him to register.

I'd like to ask for clarification at this point, as I do not have the time to read through the entire proposal - If the XP model did change, are you proposing that maximum XP should only be earned by individuals who restrict their builds to a certain points-threshold?

Arnold wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:
...so yes TD could provide a bin to put your card with a sign and a stapler...

Or your “Gladiator Guild” or whatever you want to call it can provide all that, and ask TD for permission to take up 2 square feet of floor space to set it up.

TD has a lot going on setting up everything else. I wouldn’t want to ask them to be distracted setting up anything else, especially when it will only be used by maybe 2% of the population.

If TD could simply put out a box and make 2% of the population extremely happy, shouldn't they? Assuming permission were granted, of course.

No. It’s a question of resources and priorities.

Last year, we had trouble finding all the furniture and lighting we needed to set up Grind. We never got everything we wanted and had to make do, but we did. And that was a sanctioned event which sold tickets for money.

So i don’t think TD should take on any additional responsibility, not even something “simple,” for an unsanctioned event that takes up any time or resources that should go towards setting up the sanctioned events.

If having a box will make a tiny subset of people happy, those people should organize and bring one.

Remember, this is just one proposal. What happens when a dozen other people demand the same “simple” accommodations for their variant? Is Jeff supposed to set up a post office to manage all the paperwork for a bunch of random games? He has a lot of other things to do.

Arnold wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:
...so yes TD could provide a bin to put your card with a sign and a stapler...

Or your “Gladiator Guild” or whatever you want to call it can provide all that, and ask TD for permission to take up 2 square feet of floor space to set it up.

TD has a lot going on setting up everything else. I wouldn’t want to ask them to be distracted setting up anything else, especially when it will only be used by maybe 2% of the population.

If TD could simply put out a box and make 2% of the population extremely happy, shouldn't they? Assuming permission were granted, of course.

I think the leaderboard idea has merit.

I think the XP idea does not. There would surely be a ripple effect with unintended consequences. The system in place makes sense - regardless of what tokens the party is equipped with. I'd be curious to know how many casual fans even care about XP.

Anecdotal - my buddy who got me into TD ran for 3 or 4 years before he got me into it. I've run with him 3 years now now and I just convinced him to register.

I'd like to ask for clarification at this point, as I do not have the time to read through the entire proposal - If the XP model did change, are you proposing that maximum XP should only be earned by individuals who restrict their builds to a certain points-threshold?

I really like the leaderboard idea. And although I commend Brad for looking out for TD in terms of resource strains I don't think some of the proposals are that demanding. New ideas like this are fun and can help keep players engaged with the game.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:
...so yes TD could provide a bin to put your card with a sign and a stapler...

Or your “Gladiator Guild” or whatever you want to call it can provide all that, and ask TD for permission to take up 2 square feet of floor space to set it up.

TD has a lot going on setting up everything else. I wouldn’t want to ask them to be distracted setting up anything else, especially when it will only be used by maybe 2% of the population.

If TD could simply put out a box and make 2% of the population extremely happy, shouldn't they? Assuming permission were granted, of course.

No. It’s a question of resources and priorities.

Last year, we had trouble finding all the furniture and lighting we needed to set up Grind. We never got everything we wanted and had to make do, but we did. And that was a sanctioned event which sold tickets for money.

So i don’t think TD should take on any additional responsibility, not even something “simple,” for an unsanctioned event that takes up any time or resources that should go towards setting up the sanctioned events.

If having a box will make a tiny subset of people happy, those people should organize and bring one.

Remember, this is just one proposal. What happens when a dozen other people demand the same “simple” accommodations for their variant? Is Jeff supposed to set up a post office to manage all the paperwork for a bunch of random games? He has a lot of other things to do.

I think your going a bit overboard. No one is demanding anything. If people want to ask TPTB for something they think might make the game more enjoyable I think they should. Your idea of what will overburden resources may not be correct. Or maybe it is. But no harm in asking. If I were Jeff I'd welcome ideas such as these. And if he gets overloaded with them I'm sure he'd mention it.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Last year, we had trouble finding all the furniture and lighting we needed to set up Grind. We never got everything we wanted and had to make do, but we did. And that was a sanctioned event which sold tickets for money.

Yes, that's an ongoing problem. But it is solvable.

Brad Mortensen wrote: So i don’t think TD should take on any additional responsibility, not even something “simple,” for an unsanctioned event that takes up any time or resources that should go towards setting up the sanctioned events.

If we never did anything that requires more effort or responsibility, we wouldn't have player XP, survival pins, tokens, or TrueGrind. The point is I believe that Jeff has been willing and still is willing to put effort into improving the game and player satisfaction.

Brad Mortensen wrote: If having a box will make a tiny subset of people happy, those people should organize and bring one.

I agree with you IF it a tiny subset. But neither of us know how popular it might be without at least discussing it, if not trying it. You are assuming it is a tiny subset. I don't know.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Remember, this is just one proposal. What happens when a dozen other people demand the same “simple” accommodations for their variant? Is Jeff supposed to set up a post office to manage all the paperwork for a bunch of random games? He has a lot of other things to do.

I definitely don't think Jeff should do everything that anybody asks for. But I do believe he is interested and willing to do some things if he thinks they will improve the game. I think Jeff should pick and choose.

Wow lots. Im going to type some thoughts as i read, else they will be forgotten.

First thought: any change to the XP system is going to meet some harsh criticism. The current system is less like true XP and more of a rewards program for loyal customers...with a built in bonus for those who make an effort (with skill and/or money) to play a harder level.

Not to be discouraging, because i am very interested in where this goes, but i think this needs to be separate from the current XP. In fact, i think the current system should shift to being called 'player rewards' rathen than XP. And your new system can be called 'player XP'. The big question to me is whether everyone starts from 0, or if you port in the current player rewards points as a starting point to show who at least has the longest running experience in TD.

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Im not sure what you mean about considering the character card when measuring points. Are you suggesting that some classes would 'cost' more points than others? Ie wizard and rogue are only 5 points, the fighters are 6, but ranger and druid are 7. Or is it just your mention of 4th vs 5th level?

In either case, i dont think this should be considered in a point system. We should work towards all classes having value (during card design every few years) and not rely on a handicap system after design. As for 4th vs 5th level; that bonus is granted by tokens, so just point the tokens appropriately and all is good.

Note: please dont assign overly high point costs to +1 level. It should cost something because it is a power boost, but i would hate to see players discouraged from using 5th level characters since they can add a lot of interesting things.

As for making general rules and there being exceptions to those, such as a player figuring out that using poison prevention while equipping the gauntlets of midgard serpent is undercosted for its net effect...well, good. Isnt that the kind of thing that a point system is measuring? A players ability to equip themselves effectively. If something is found to be too good for its cost, then you increase the point cost of some component.

Oh, on a similar line of thinking; set bonuses might need a point cost assigned to them, else some set pieces would have to be too many points to be any good outside the set.

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Knowledge: i dont think the point system should assume any detailed knowledge of the specific dungeons. Partly because you have to change point values for every single dungeon. To me, this again gets into rewarding players for equipping well. Although, this one stretches a bit into rewarding multiple runs/scouting, but im not convinced that is bad. Though, a system like this may cause us to be more critical during token design; for example rare weapons that have +3 damage in current year dungeons might be too good as the cost independent of dungeon will be well below UR, making it an easy choice over UR weapons for that year.

As to the value of situational bonuses, it should have a small cost, but nowhere close to 'always on'. Off the top of my head, i would estimate somewhere between 1/5th to 1/4th the additional points.

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Point calculations...uh, wow. I, uh...hmmm...ok, i dont like it, but i am trying to sort out if it is the method i dont like or some of you base numbers/assumptions. But as i think on it a bit, im not sure that matters. More importantly, i dont think a calculation can be the final answer on all tokens. Whatever calculation is used (within reason, which yours are) can be fine as a starting point. So long as it is only the starting values for discussion, and adjustments are made to tune everything, i am good.

For example, if the numbers say that the rare +2 save cloak is equal to cloak of shadowskin, we definitely dont want to be locked in to that; there are numbers that need tweaking.

Calculating points for stat bonuses? These should be 0 base, plus whatever bonus is gained due to stat increase. Also, dont round up; meaning you should not treat +1 con as a 4hp and +1 fort increase, instead it shpuld be that value divided by 2. This method will more accurately capture stacking multiple odd bonuses. Think of it this way; four +1 items should be half the points of four +2 items.

Points based on rarity instead of quality of the effect is nonsensical to me. For one thing, you have the same ability awarded at different rarities, sometimes because that ability is only part of the total effect. For example, boots of free action vs boots of marauder - the free movement ability on the marauder boots is costing more points than the rare boots due only to rarity. It is the same ability in the same slot, the difference is points should be because marauder also has another ability.

So, +1 max hp is definitely worth more than 1 pt healing, but not 7 times more. If i had to follow that point system, i would try to keep my hp as low as possible without risking getting killed in a single round of combat, then bring a bunch of healing.

This also brings up a concern i have for consumables in general. Are the points added when you use them, or just to take them with you? Because if it costs points just to have them, that starts to seem like encumberance rules (which typically suck). But not adding the points unless used means the point total for builds is variable until the dungeon is over. I dont have a suggestion off the top of my head, but i will think on it.

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Ok, that is what i have for today after reading only the original post...but now for new tokens, necro this thread in a month