TOPIC: Change in Ghost Policy

Druegar wrote:

Harlax wrote: Or losing out on a nightmare run because of a fill in.

Just so everyone knows, if you're the owner of the ticket, you are completely within your rights to say to the person who fills your empty slot(s) who you sell the ticket to that it's a nightmare run.

However, if you turn the ticket back into Gen Con, you lose the ability to dictate the difficulty.

Being the owner of the ticket only matters if you can actually turn it in for the run. With electronic tickets, it is sounding like we cannot even give the ticket to TD unless we have someone to use it. What if we cant find someone (because TD cant actually help us sell a ticket we own, they can only sell empty slots on the waitlist). Not only are you out 78 for the ticket you cant give TD, but TD is out that money unless they sell the empty slot after you go into coaching...so halfway through coaching, you could have a random stranger walk in and ruin your plans.

The Falcon wrote: How about TD contacts GC
And they then agree to open up a 30 day window
Starting now for returning TD tickets
Without any fees.
To help the People that got extra tickets for Ghosting.

But i dont want to return my tickets. I only have one run of N3, i own all 10 tickets, but one 6 players so far. I am looking for more, but i dont want to return the tickets because my wife and i want at least hardcore difficulty.

Dave wrote: I hope I'm wrong, but electronic ticketing appears to be heading toward a disaster. First, I'm not impacted by the ghosting decision one way or the other. I own one CoA and people buying out tickets hasn't kept me from getting the schedule I wanted. But here's the thing. Gen Con created a new system and obviously did not ask the people impacted by this system how the current paper process is used. They put a process and applicable policies in place that negatively impact their customers. I don't believe Jeff and TD are at fault, but they need to go back to Gen Con and provide use cases for how their customers play the game. It should be up to Gen Con to come up with a solution. It's a gaming convention and Gen Con's job is to create an environment and support systems that allow those running games to do so by their rules. It isn't their job to determine the rules of each game. Anyway, that's my feeling on the matter and while this use case doesn't impact me, my fear is that this system will still negatively impact me in other ways.

But what if gencon's response is that event organizers are supposed to get paid per PERSON attending their event? If TD wants to provide 5-person runs, they should sell slots with only 5 tickets (at double price if they dont want to lose revenue). Or guaranteed hardcore or nightmare slots? Sell them as such.

As a player, i know how terrible it was when TD tried to do things like this. It is MUCH better for TD (and the players) to keep the flexibilty of allowing us to buy 10 tickets and use them as we like, but it seems like gencon will have to make an exception to the rules just for TD to make this happen.

kurtreznor wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Harlax wrote: Or losing out on a nightmare run because of a fill in.

Just so everyone knows, if you're the owner of the ticket, you are completely within your rights to say to the person who fills your empty slot(s) who you sell the ticket to that it's a nightmare run.

However, if you turn the ticket back into Gen Con, you lose the ability to dictate the difficulty.

Being the owner of the ticket only matters if you can actually turn it in for the run. With electronic tickets, it is sounding like we cannot even give the ticket to TD unless we have someone to use it. What if we cant find someone (because TD cant actually help us sell a ticket we own, they can only sell empty slots on the waitlist). Not only are you out 78 for the ticket you cant give TD, but TD is out that money unless they sell the empty slot after you go into coaching...so halfway through coaching, you could have a random stranger walk in and ruin your plans.

The Falcon wrote: How about TD contacts GC
And they then agree to open up a 30 day window
Starting now for returning TD tickets
Without any fees.
To help the People that got extra tickets for Ghosting.

But i dont want to return my tickets. I only have one run of N3, i own all 10 tickets, but one 6 players so far. I am looking for more, but i dont want to return the tickets because my wife and i want at least hardcore difficulty.

Dave wrote: I hope I'm wrong, but electronic ticketing appears to be heading toward a disaster. First, I'm not impacted by the ghosting decision one way or the other. I own one CoA and people buying out tickets hasn't kept me from getting the schedule I wanted. But here's the thing. Gen Con created a new system and obviously did not ask the people impacted by this system how the current paper process is used. They put a process and applicable policies in place that negatively impact their customers. I don't believe Jeff and TD are at fault, but they need to go back to Gen Con and provide use cases for how their customers play the game. It should be up to Gen Con to come up with a solution. It's a gaming convention and Gen Con's job is to create an environment and support systems that allow those running games to do so by their rules. It isn't their job to determine the rules of each game. Anyway, that's my feeling on the matter and while this use case doesn't impact me, my fear is that this system will still negatively impact me in other ways.

But what if gencon's response is that event organizers are supposed to get paid per PERSON attending their event? If TD wants to provide 5-person runs, they should sell slots with only 5 tickets (at double price if they dont want to lose revenue). Or guaranteed hardcore or nightmare slots? Sell them as such.

As a player, i know how terrible it was when TD tried to do things like this. It is MUCH better for TD (and the players) to keep the flexibilty of allowing us to buy 10 tickets and use them as we like, but it seems like gencon will have to make an exception to the rules just for TD to make this happen.

I'm guessing you're right about GENCON's response. I doubt they'll have much sympathy regarding impact on "ghost players", their response may just be that there shouldn't be "ghost players".

I do also hope that some solution is found for when you have one or more people from your group not show up or cancel on you at the last minute. That has happened to us a couple of times. Currently, it seems like the only solution is to find someone on the wait list willing to give you $78 cash for the ticket. Maybe some way can be found to be able to refund the ticket at the True Dungeon desk, so they can resell it to someone at the wait list line (assuming there are people waiting at that time).

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Harlax wrote: Or losing out on a nightmare run because of a fill in.

Just so everyone knows, if you're the owner of the ticket, you are completely within your rights to say to the person who fills your empty slot(s) who you sell the ticket to that it's a nightmare run.

However, if you turn the ticket back into Gen Con, you lose the ability to dictate the difficulty.

Being the owner of the ticket only matters if you can actually turn it in for the run. With electronic tickets, it is sounding like we cannot even give the ticket to TD unless we have someone to use it. What if we cant find someone (because TD cant actually help us sell a ticket we own, they can only sell empty slots on the waitlist). Not only are you out 78 for the ticket you cant give TD, but TD is out that money unless they sell the empty slot after you go into coaching...so halfway through coaching, you could have a random stranger walk in and ruin your plans.

The Falcon wrote: How about TD contacts GC
And they then agree to open up a 30 day window
Starting now for returning TD tickets
Without any fees.
To help the People that got extra tickets for Ghosting.

But i dont want to return my tickets. I only have one run of N3, i own all 10 tickets, but one 6 players so far. I am looking for more, but i dont want to return the tickets because my wife and i want at least hardcore difficulty.

Dave wrote: I hope I'm wrong, but electronic ticketing appears to be heading toward a disaster. First, I'm not impacted by the ghosting decision one way or the other. I own one CoA and people buying out tickets hasn't kept me from getting the schedule I wanted. But here's the thing. Gen Con created a new system and obviously did not ask the people impacted by this system how the current paper process is used. They put a process and applicable policies in place that negatively impact their customers. I don't believe Jeff and TD are at fault, but they need to go back to Gen Con and provide use cases for how their customers play the game. It should be up to Gen Con to come up with a solution. It's a gaming convention and Gen Con's job is to create an environment and support systems that allow those running games to do so by their rules. It isn't their job to determine the rules of each game. Anyway, that's my feeling on the matter and while this use case doesn't impact me, my fear is that this system will still negatively impact me in other ways.

But what if gencon's response is that event organizers are supposed to get paid per PERSON attending their event? If TD wants to provide 5-person runs, they should sell slots with only 5 tickets (at double price if they dont want to lose revenue). Or guaranteed hardcore or nightmare slots? Sell them as such.

As a player, i know how terrible it was when TD tried to do things like this. It is MUCH better for TD (and the players) to keep the flexibilty of allowing us to buy 10 tickets and use them as we like, but it seems like gencon will have to make an exception to the rules just for TD to make this happen.

I'm guessing you're right about GENCON's response. I doubt they'll have much sympathy regarding impact on "ghost players", their response may just be that there shouldn't be "ghost players".

I do also hope that some solution is found for when you have one or more people from your group not show up or cancel on you at the last minute. That has happened to us a couple of times. Currently, it seems like the only solution is to find someone on the wait list willing to give you $78 cash for the ticket. Maybe some way can be found to be able to refund the ticket at the True Dungeon desk, so they can resell it to someone at the wait list line (assuming there are people waiting at that time).

I don't think Gen Con should care or have a say in the matter of "ghosting" players. If the event wants to list 10 open slots, then Gen Con will get paid for 10 people. Why should they care if it's 10 actual people or 5 actual people and 5 ghosts? They still get paid the same. And I don't think they should be legislating what's best for TD. That should be for TD to decide. The fact is that TD had a policy of allowing ghosting at Gen Con. I don't think Gen Con's ticketing system should dictate whether or not that is good for the game. I think it would be different if TD allowed 2 players to play and only buy 1 ticket. In that case, the event is circumventing payment to Gen Con. Then I see them stepping in . In this case, I just don't think it should be their call. IMHO

Nice to see so many Libertarians on the forums

But as Willow said, “it’s better to light a candle than to curse the damn darkness,” so I’m offering to leave a photocopy of my badge at the check-in desk for, uhm... “safe keeping.” And so will my wife, uh... Morgan Fairchild! Yeah, that’s the ticket...

Brad Mortensen wrote: Nice to see so many Libertarians on the forums

But as Willow said, “it’s better to light a candle than to curse the damn darkness,” so I’m offering to leave a photocopy of my badge at the check-in desk for, uhm... “safe keeping.” And so will my wife, uh... Morgan Fairchild! Yeah, that’s the ticket...

So - if the new True Dungeon policy at GENCON is now to not allow Ghost Players, I see a flaw in the plan to let people run ghost players by scanning other people's badges at the registration desk.

How will that work at the exit desk? If a party has ghost players, when they are at the exit desk, you would think the volunteers there wouldn't be giving completion tokens or treasure coins to the people with Ghost Players since Ghost Players aren't allowed at GENCON.

For the record, I think if Jeff sets the policy that there aren't going to be Ghost Players at GENCON, people shouldn't be looking for ways to hack their way into running Ghost Players unless Jeff gives his blessing to it. I do agree that it would be great if some official workaround (or no penalty refund) were found, for those that bought tickets planning to use them for Ghost Players.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Nice to see so many Libertarians on the forums

But as Willow said, “it’s better to light a candle than to curse the damn darkness,” so I’m offering to leave a photocopy of my badge at the check-in desk for, uhm... “safe keeping.” And so will my wife, uh... Morgan Fairchild! Yeah, that’s the ticket...

So - if the new True Dungeon policy at GENCON is now to not allow Ghost Players, I see a flaw in the plan to let people run ghost players by scanning other people's badges at the registration desk.

How will that work at the exit desk? If a party has ghost players, when they are at the exit desk, you would think the volunteers there wouldn't be giving completion tokens or treasure coins to the people with Ghost Players since Ghost Players aren't allowed at GENCON.

For the record, I think if Jeff sets the policy that there aren't going to be Ghost Players at GENCON, people shouldn't be looking for ways to hack their way into running Ghost Players unless Jeff gives his blessing to it. I do agree that it would be great if some official workaround (or no penalty refund) were found, for those that bought tickets planning to use them for Ghost Players.

i dont want hundreds of dollars in system credit from gen con because this wasnt announced before tickets went on sale.
that is not fair to the person who bought the tickets. if it was 10$ okay no biggie, i can wait a year to use it.
but 780$ or more is way too much

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Nice to see so many Libertarians on the forums

But as Willow said, “it’s better to light a candle than to curse the damn darkness,” so I’m offering to leave a photocopy of my badge at the check-in desk for, uhm... “safe keeping.” And so will my wife, uh... Morgan Fairchild! Yeah, that’s the ticket...

So - if the new True Dungeon policy at GENCON is now to not allow Ghost Players, I see a flaw in the plan to let people run ghost players by scanning other people's badges at the registration desk.

How will that work at the exit desk? If a party has ghost players, when they are at the exit desk, you would think the volunteers there wouldn't be giving completion tokens or treasure coins to the people with Ghost Players since Ghost Players aren't allowed at GENCON.

For the record, I think if Jeff sets the policy that there aren't going to be Ghost Players at GENCON, people shouldn't be looking for ways to hack their way into running Ghost Players unless Jeff gives his blessing to it. I do agree that it would be great if some official workaround (or no penalty refund) were found, for those that bought tickets planning to use them for Ghost Players.

i dont want hundreds of dollars in system credit from gen con because this wasnt announced before tickets went on sale.
that is not fair to the person who bought the tickets. if it was 10$ okay no biggie, i can wait a year to use it.
but 780$ or more is way too much

Several thousands is way too much in credit.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Nice to see so many Libertarians on the forums

But as Willow said, “it’s better to light a candle than to curse the damn darkness,” so I’m offering to leave a photocopy of my badge at the check-in desk for, uhm... “safe keeping.” And so will my wife, uh... Morgan Fairchild! Yeah, that’s the ticket...

So - if the new True Dungeon policy at GENCON is now to not allow Ghost Players, I see a flaw in the plan to let people run ghost players by scanning other people's badges at the registration desk.

How will that work at the exit desk? If a party has ghost players, when they are at the exit desk, you would think the volunteers there wouldn't be giving completion tokens or treasure coins to the people with Ghost Players since Ghost Players aren't allowed at GENCON.

For the record, I think if Jeff sets the policy that there aren't going to be Ghost Players at GENCON, people shouldn't be looking for ways to hack their way into running Ghost Players unless Jeff gives his blessing to it. I do agree that it would be great if some official workaround (or no penalty refund) were found, for those that bought tickets planning to use them for Ghost Players.

i dont want hundreds of dollars in system credit from gen con because this wasnt announced before tickets went on sale.
that is not fair to the person who bought the tickets. if it was 10$ okay no biggie, i can wait a year to use it.
but 780$ or more is way too much

I agree that isn't fair. Hopefully either some sort of official workaround can be found, or at the least a way can be found to refund the ticket price without any penalty? There isn't any risk to GENCON for that, since the tickets are sure to sell.

Maybe as an official workaround, True Dungeon could buy five extra badges, and have them at the Registration Desk for people to scan if they are running Ghost Players? They could even be hooked on a chain fastened to the table so they wouldn't walk off.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Nice to see so many Libertarians on the forums

But as Willow said, “it’s better to light a candle than to curse the damn darkness,” so I’m offering to leave a photocopy of my badge at the check-in desk for, uhm... “safe keeping.” And so will my wife, uh... Morgan Fairchild! Yeah, that’s the ticket...

So - if the new True Dungeon policy at GENCON is now to not allow Ghost Players, I see a flaw in the plan to let people run ghost players by scanning other people's badges at the registration desk.

How will that work at the exit desk? If a party has ghost players, when they are at the exit desk, you would think the volunteers there wouldn't be giving completion tokens or treasure coins to the people with Ghost Players since Ghost Players aren't allowed at GENCON.

For the record, I think if Jeff sets the policy that there aren't going to be Ghost Players at GENCON, people shouldn't be looking for ways to hack their way into running Ghost Players unless Jeff gives his blessing to it. I do agree that it would be great if some official workaround (or no penalty refund) were found, for those that bought tickets planning to use them for Ghost Players.

I think Jeffs decision is based on getting the money per ticket from GenCon.

The players get pinched when empty slots are filled.

The players return tickets to avoid getting pinched.

GenCon smile because they get 5% extra.

Only loser are the players.

With a 30 minutes deadline for returns players will congregate earlier than that to check in. Thus having 4x+ as many people crowding in the check-in area.

@Mike - For the record, I am by no means suggesting trying to get around Jeff’s rules. We loves him. Jeff is our precious...

I’m advocating trying to get around GC’s fascist rules, that only seem to be justified by “our system can’t deal.” Fork them. Okay then, if they’re too lazy, narrow-minded, or short-sighted to fix their system, we will find a way around it. It’s what gamers do.

But I can also appreciate that if Jeff signed a paper with unknown (to us) stipulations on it, then he may not be in a position to recommend or approve any workaround his devious minions may devise.

If Jeff says don’t, then of course we’ll abide by that.

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Mike - For the record, I am by no means suggesting trying to get around Jeff’s rules. We loves him. Jeff is our precious...

I’m advocating trying to get around GC’s fascist rules, that only seem to be justified by “our system can’t deal.” Okay then, if they’re too lazy or short-sighted to fix their system, we will find a way around it. It’s what gamers do.

Brad, I get what you're saying, the whole problem was caused by the way the GENCON system is going to handle electronic tickets. But, the decision to not allow Ghost Players as a result was Jeff's, so I'd think any workaround should get Jeff's blessing. Just my opinion.

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Harlax wrote: Or losing out on a nightmare run because of a fill in.

Just so everyone knows, if you're the owner of the ticket, you are completely within your rights to say to the person who fills your empty slot(s) who you sell the ticket to that it's a nightmare run.

However, if you turn the ticket back into Gen Con, you lose the ability to dictate the difficulty.

Being the owner of the ticket only matters if you can actually turn it in for the run. With electronic tickets, it is sounding like we cannot even give the ticket to TD unless we have someone to use it. What if we cant find someone (because TD cant actually help us sell a ticket we own, they can only sell empty slots on the waitlist). Not only are you out 78 for the ticket you cant give TD, but TD is out that money unless they sell the empty slot after you go into coaching...so halfway through coaching, you could have a random stranger walk in and ruin your plans.

The Falcon wrote: How about TD contacts GC
And they then agree to open up a 30 day window
Starting now for returning TD tickets
Without any fees.
To help the People that got extra tickets for Ghosting.

But i dont want to return my tickets. I only have one run of N3, i own all 10 tickets, but one 6 players so far. I am looking for more, but i dont want to return the tickets because my wife and i want at least hardcore difficulty.

Dave wrote: I hope I'm wrong, but electronic ticketing appears to be heading toward a disaster. First, I'm not impacted by the ghosting decision one way or the other. I own one CoA and people buying out tickets hasn't kept me from getting the schedule I wanted. But here's the thing. Gen Con created a new system and obviously did not ask the people impacted by this system how the current paper process is used. They put a process and applicable policies in place that negatively impact their customers. I don't believe Jeff and TD are at fault, but they need to go back to Gen Con and provide use cases for how their customers play the game. It should be up to Gen Con to come up with a solution. It's a gaming convention and Gen Con's job is to create an environment and support systems that allow those running games to do so by their rules. It isn't their job to determine the rules of each game. Anyway, that's my feeling on the matter and while this use case doesn't impact me, my fear is that this system will still negatively impact me in other ways.

But what if gencon's response is that event organizers are supposed to get paid per PERSON attending their event? If TD wants to provide 5-person runs, they should sell slots with only 5 tickets (at double price if they dont want to lose revenue). Or guaranteed hardcore or nightmare slots? Sell them as such.

As a player, i know how terrible it was when TD tried to do things like this. It is MUCH better for TD (and the players) to keep the flexibilty of allowing us to buy 10 tickets and use them as we like, but it seems like gencon will have to make an exception to the rules just for TD to make this happen.

I'm guessing you're right about GENCON's response. I doubt they'll have much sympathy regarding impact on "ghost players", their response may just be that there shouldn't be "ghost players".

I do also hope that some solution is found for when you have one or more people from your group not show up or cancel on you at the last minute. That has happened to us a couple of times. Currently, it seems like the only solution is to find someone on the wait list willing to give you $78 cash for the ticket. Maybe some way can be found to be able to refund the ticket at the True Dungeon desk, so they can resell it to someone at the wait list line (assuming there are people waiting at that time).

I don't think Gen Con should care or have a say in the matter of "ghosting" players. If the event wants to list 10 open slots, then Gen Con will get paid for 10 people. Why should they care if it's 10 actual people or 5 actual people and 5 ghosts? They still get paid the same. And I don't think they should be legislating what's best for TD. That should be for TD to decide. The fact is that TD had a policy of allowing ghosting at Gen Con. I don't think Gen Con's ticketing system should dictate whether or not that is good for the game. I think it would be different if TD allowed 2 players to play and only buy 1 ticket. In that case, the event is circumventing payment to Gen Con. Then I see them stepping in . In this case, I just don't think it should be their call. IMHO

But gencon does care and have a responsibilty to their customers...such as using space in a manner to best serve their customers. While i think it would be acceptable for gencon to make exceptions for TD when it comes to players turning in multiple tickets, for most events, this practice would mostly just inflate their attendance numbers when gencon goes to analyze data. If 5 people turn in all 100 tickets to an event, gencon might think that is a very successful event and grant them space that is only used by a few people...space that they could give to a different event that would actually have 100 people show up.
Again, i think TD is unique in that we typically use the extra tickets to modify our experience/limit exposure to unknown factors, and the few extra tickets are such a small percentage of the total TD tickets at gencon that it wouldnt reflect negatively on TD.

Maybe TD can push to allow players to use multiple tickets on a single badge, given that gencon will be able to track that. In the above 5 people 100 tickets scenario, gencon could see that only 5 people attended that event. Of course, TD would have to crack down on checking in all the individuals on the run to get credit for the attendance (allowing the buyer to check in for all 10 tickets will get TD paid, but gencon will only count 1 person as playing that run)