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TOPIC: Change in Ghost Policy

Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #85

If GenCon makes ghosting against the rules for this years GenCon (2018), then they will have a potential class action lawsuit against them.

When badges became available, we bought badges, planning on the ghosting to be allowed... even booked airfare and hotels with all this in mind.

Then, when the tickets became available, we bought lots of tickets, expecting to be able to ghost.

Now, if they ban ghosting, I have around 30+ tickets I will need to return. It is not my fault that I bought tickets for ghosting, the potential policy change wasn't made until AFTER the purchase was complete.

With GenCon's 5% restocking fee, they are screwing me out of around $150 in restocking fees... and are guaranteed to sell the return tickets at full value. GenCon allowed us to buy multiple tickets without marking them for friends. Them changing this mid stream in my opinion is a breach of contract.

In no way am I blaming Jeff for this--he inherited this cluster duck when GenCon changed the rules mid stream, even after online allowing for the mass purchases. And I apologize for any headache I might be causing True Adventures...

This is very upsetting to me since I will be returning 30 tickets... I will still be playing in around 12 unique runs, but feel like GenCon did some Bait and Switch on this one.
Last edit: by Mongo.
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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #86

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: they could have easily created an app to download. then you could have your tickets (even in offline) in the app. this way of "electronic" tickets , is almost a step back from paper tickets


I can get an NFL ticket on my smart device and have it scanned at the gate.. And I can choose to print it and have that scanned at the gate. Either will work for admission to the game. But both can't be used at the same time.

So there is nothing to prevent what you are suggesting and more.
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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #87

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:
Forget ghosting for a minute. I thought that someone with ten tickets on their account could cash them all in at once, get their wristbands and pass them out. You’re saying that this is not true? Do they have to transfer each individual ticket to different individual badges? What a cluster. I mean, that sounds suboptimal.


The way it was explained to me is we must scan in the buyer's badge AND the other player badge at the same time to properly work the system. I signed a paper saying I would abide by their rules, so I can't allow ghosts according to how it works -- unless that person has 9 other real badges.


Is there any way to push back on Gen Con about this?

Frankly it's nuts that Gen Con is trying to change their policy around this as a side effect of going to electronic tickets, and appears to be doing so without an understanding of the impact it has on one of their premier events.

In the past when they were paper, I got X tickets with my name on them, and I was free to dispose of them how I liked.

Now with electronic tickets I am being told I need X-1 people standing around for the purpose of barcode scanning.

There is no obvious good reason for this new restriction, it's not a value add to me as a player, it doesn't seem to be a value add to you as a a GM/exhibitor, and I can't see how it's a benefit to Gen Con (unless maybe they think people are playing in events without a badge and/or scalping tickets?).

I would request that you request that Gen Con provide TD with 9 valid barcodes assigned to "flex player 1", "flex player 2", ... and so on, and allow these barcodes to be used to register players as they arrive to claim their wristbands.


I think the benefit to the con is being able to ditch the entire ticket pickup counter and corresponding volunteers.



Here's a thought, could we run photocopies of the barcodes for day shift volunteers badges and leave those scannable codes at the desk during the day since day shift volts wouldn't be using them anyway. Same at night with the night shift guys.


This doesn't sound like a good idea. There's got to be some kind of fine print that precludes badge holders from this kind of practice. Would be terrible for a volunteer to receive any kind of punishment from GC for trying to help his or her fellow adventurer.
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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #88

Mongo wrote: If GenCon makes ghosting against the rules for this years GenCon (2018), then they will have a potential class action lawsuit against them.

When badges became available, we bought badges, planning on the ghosting to be allowed... even booked airfare and hotels with all this in mind.

Then, when the tickets became available, we bought lots of tickets, expecting to be able to ghost.

Now, if they ban ghosting, I have around 30+ tickets I will need to return. It is not my fault that I bought tickets for ghosting, the potential policy change wasn't made until AFTER the purchase was complete.

With GenCon's 5% restocking fee, they are screwing me out of around $150 in restocking fees... and are guaranteed to sell the return tickets at full value. GenCon allowed us to buy multiple tickets without marking them for friends. Them changing this mid stream in my opinion is a breach of contract.

In no way am I blaming Jeff for this--he inherited this cluster duck when GenCon changed the rules mid stream, even after online allowing for the mass purchases. And I apologize for any headache I might be causing True Adventures...

This is very upsetting to me since I will be returning 30 tickets... I will still be playing in around 12 unique runs, but feel like GenCon did some Bait and Switch on this one.


Technically GENCON isn't making ghosting against the rules, they are just setting up a procedure for how to do electronic tickets, of which a side effect seems to be that ghosting isn't going to work. I wouldn't be surprised if the people coming up with the electronic ticketing procedures weren't even aware of ghosting at True Dungeon.

For anyone thinking up a hack around the no ghosting rule at GENCON, I'd recommend checking with Jeff first to see if he's OK with that.
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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #89

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Harlax wrote: Or losing out on a nightmare run because of a fill in.

Just so everyone knows, if you're the owner of the ticket, you are completely within your rights to say to the person who fills your empty slot(s) who you sell the ticket to that it's a nightmare run.

However, if you turn the ticket back into Gen Con, you lose the ability to dictate the difficulty.
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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #90

Harlax wrote:

edwin wrote:

Harlax wrote:
Not as much as eating the cost of a $78 ticket and getting nothing for it because of a last minute no show.

Or losing out on a nightmare run because of a fill in.


I no longer consider GenCon the premier TD convention.

It will be another convention (GameholeCon or Origins) when ghosting may be allowed so that one can avoid these issue.


Unless there is further change, GHC is not one of those where ghosting is allowed.


But it is a 50 minute drive from my door, so it may still become my premier event. That would mean not volunteering there in the future which would make me sad.


Ah. Then Origins would be it for me.

I like the ability to run unique runs that are more challenging with having a wildcard scenario.

What I think may happen is that the Electronic system allows for being off line and reconciliation to occur after the fact. If the reconciliation finds a snag then TD wont get reimburse for that ticket.

Electronic ticket implementation choice of 1 per badge results in the inability of TD to recover cost of ticket if a ghost is allowed.

GenCon does not choose to adjust the implementation.

GenCon does not currently support transfer of electronics tickets yet.

Avl big cluster that I look forward to seeing Lazos videos.

One thought I had was to get extra badges and ask people on the street to come in and get ticket for say $5 and the ability to wander the convention area and do what they do.
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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #91

edwin wrote:
One thought I had was to get extra badges and ask people on the street to come in and get ticket for say $5 and the ability to wander the convention area and do what they do.


Not sure I understand this scheme. GenCon badges are $60 a day

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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #92

How about TD contacts GC
And they then agree to open up a 30 day window
Starting now for returning TD tickets
Without any fees.
To help the People that got extra tickets for Ghosting.
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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #93

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Jeff Martin wrote: The way it was explained to me is we must scan in the buyer's badge AND the other player badge at the same time to properly work the system. I signed a paper saying I would abide by their rules, so I can't allow ghosts according to how it works -- unless that person has 9 other real badges.


Jeff, thank you very much for keeping the player base in the loop about what's going on here.

I know you aren't deliberately trying to make it hard for us - still, this feels like such a punch to the gut when we'd made plans (plans which cost hundreds or thousands of dollars) and then find out things are going to be different than expected.

The scenarios which make me the most worried & frustrated about this new system include:

* What happens if you buy all 10 tickets, and are waiting for a couple of your friends who are late?
You don't want to go return their tickets for system credit 30 mins before the event, because your friends may still show in that window. But let's say they don't ... Now you - as the ticket holder - are out the $156 for those tickets, despite the fact that you're standing there, with the electronic tickets you paid for, right where you need to be.

I know there's the possibility that you might be able to sell them for cash to a couple people in the stand-byline, to recoup your losses, but it grates that the person who owns the tix is right there, and HAS THE TICKETS right there, but GenCon's rules make it impossible to actually turn them in, so their only option is to sell $156 worth of tickets to total strangers and hope for the best.

* What about situations where people are doing a specialty run - like the LASS run, or a "Green with Envy" run, and end up with a spare ticket? Will True Dungeon refuse to accept that ticket (because GenCon's system won't allow them to accept it) and grab someone from the stand-by line? So you end up with a random guy being brought into a run full of women?... or a UR-laden player suddenly overpowering the Uncommon builds which folks were going to use for a challenge?

* What about those people who choose to run with pre-made groups for medical reasons (anxiety around strangers / claustrophobia when packed into tight spaces with other people) or because they want to bring a potentially loud / misbehaving child and not disrupt people (besides their own family)?


I completely understand that GenCon made their ticketing rules for a reason. They don't want to encourage scalpers or resellers, or create loopholes where one person with a badge could potentially bring friends-who-don't-have-badges to an event. But their rules are based on the idea that most games are played sitting around a table, or in an environment where you can easily come & go if you run into problems with grumpy kids or irritating strangers.

True Dungeon puts players into a stressful and often crowded environment, where just stepping out isn't really an option. So people do group ticket buys and (sometimes) pick up extra tickets in order to make the experience more enjoyable. Removing the ability to ghost an extra ticket is a bit like telling someone buying airplane tickets that the XXL passenger isn't allowed to buy a second ticket, and that if he does, they'll just ignore his ticket and assign someone to sit next to him anyways.


Thank you for doing what you can to represent the interests of your player base, Jeff. I'm really, really, hoping that something can be worked out with GenCon.
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Change in Ghost Policy 5 years 10 months ago #94

The Falcon wrote: How about TD contacts GC
And they then agree to open up a 30 day window
Starting now for returning TD tickets
Without any fees.
To help the People that got extra tickets for Ghosting.


This seems like a great compromise.

TD is only in control of their own ghosting policies. They cannot control what GC does after they have agreed to it, which seems to be the case here.

GC should own their own issues.

The GC policies are out of TD control.

Ghosting policies are completely within TD control, so long as they comply with GC policies.

I think we should be separating the 2.

If everything goes smoothly (yeah, right) what would TD want ghosting policies to be at GC?

Build the system that way, and hold GC accountable for issues that arise.

Give GC a heads up that this may be or is a problem. Work together to find a mutually agreeable solution.

Clearly I have no skin in the game, as I won't be at GC.



As for Origins,

Change the policy if you want, but please don't do it because of GenCon's issues. Whatever is set as the plan, do the best you can to make sure it is the plan you want going forward. Assuming that next year's Origins runs will cost 58 (N1, N2, N3) and possibly more (whatever designation 1). I am perfectly fine with the Ghost treasure cap at whatever level you choose, though I would definitely prefer that it be set before tickets go on sale. I agree that changing the rules after players have all bought tickets feels very much like a bait and switch, both for Origins and GC. Whether TD players could do anything about it or have a cause of action is for someone much smarter than I to determine.

I would like to see all satellite cons have the same ghosting policies, at least until their ticket sales reach levels similar to those of GenCon. If Origins allows them, GHC and Pax (if attended) should do so as well. I wouldn't want to punish anyone whose life or geography gets in the way of attendance. Perhaps do this per season, so players know in advance? If not, even more advance notice in the future would be extremely helpful.

This is not meant as anything other than a few observations and ideas, from someone who is truly not involved or impacted in any meaningful way. I am sympathetic to those who have spent a lot of money on GC tickets and don't want system credit, headaches, or any other hassles.

I also realize that TD can only control what they are truly in charge of, which does not include the GC policies. I would imagine that once things become more clear, a lot of this will be moot.
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Change in Ghost Polic 5 years 10 months ago #95

Druegar wrote:

Harlax wrote: Or losing out on a nightmare run because of a fill in.

Just so everyone knows, if you're the owner of the ticket, you are completely within your rights to say to the person who fills your empty slot(s) who you sell the ticket to that it's a nightmare run.

However, if you turn the ticket back into Gen Con, you lose the ability to dictate the difficulty.


If you can't use the ticket because the GenCon system won't let you, then TD should attempt to fill the run from the wait list. otherwise, an unused ticket is lost revenue for TD and a windfall for GenCon.

In fact the Coaches guide tells us that we are going to do just that after a certain point in time. Is that going change? If not, are we not still vulnerable to this scenario?
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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Change in Ghost Polic 5 years 10 months ago #96

I hope I'm wrong, but electronic ticketing appears to be heading toward a disaster. First, I'm not impacted by the ghosting decision one way or the other. I own one CoA and people buying out tickets hasn't kept me from getting the schedule I wanted. But here's the thing. Gen Con created a new system and obviously did not ask the people impacted by this system how the current paper process is used. They put a process and applicable policies in place that negatively impact their customers. I don't believe Jeff and TD are at fault, but they need to go back to Gen Con and provide use cases for how their customers play the game. It should be up to Gen Con to come up with a solution. It's a gaming convention and Gen Con's job is to create an environment and support systems that allow those running games to do so by their rules. It isn't their job to determine the rules of each game. Anyway, that's my feeling on the matter and while this use case doesn't impact me, my fear is that this system will still negatively impact me in other ways.
Last edit: by Dave.
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