TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

Excellent post Arcanist.
I agree with you, I don't see this being a problem TODAY.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: That said I think it's a good thing that we keep watching this, keep checking the numbers and calling out when it looks like the sky is falling. It's up to the group to make sure we don't dig too deep into the hoard and collapse the cave on top of us all.

What I see happening right now (even today) is people saying, "I don't think this cave will collapse if I dig a little here" and "I'll try digging over here because it probably won't collapse since that guy hasn't collapsed it" and "Hey, let's get a bunch more shovels and see how far we can dig right here before its gonna collapse"

I just wanna have a bunch of tools & supplies on hand to shore up the walls while we're all having so much fun digging.

Not everyone WANTS to have 10 players in their group.
Many people buy full runs to double down (10 tickets, 5 players) as it's seen (accurately) as a more enjoyable experience
MANY runs end up with 1-2 players missing the run and current TD rules state that a single player can overrule the rest of the party on raising the difficulty on the run, potentially costing 8-9 players XP and completion tokens.

I realize that some people want to exclude others from gaming, but this in direct violation of Gencon's gaming rules. The fact that TD allows this is amazing. For filling the slot from the wait list I would make the added person agree to run at the level agreed upon by the main ticket holders. If no one is available or willing to run at that level, allow ghosting.

Let me give you an example: If I was DMing a D&D module with 6 slots and 4 players showed up with 6 six tickets and said they wanted to only run 4 with several people waiting to use generics, and then they got mad when I allowed 2 more people to join, I would honestly think to myself, these people are a-holes. Why is TD different?

Why should my purchase of an unsold run not grant me exp? If I run the run I should get EXP for it?

Anyone actually running should get XP, ghosts should not. I assumed the person buying the run for the loot would not actually run it.

Raven wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Raven wrote: I agree with that last comment, Wade.
I shudder at the proposed solution tho, because waiting for the market to sort itself out will probably mean (as you pointed out) fewer slots available, increased ticket cost, and lower value for thousands of players who are not trying to game the system. That can't be good for TD's longevity!

I think you are right, just waiting for the market to sort itself out could take years with a lot of people feeling negatively about the game in the interim.

I am glad we are trying to find a solution to the problems, and I also think that right now, some change is definitely neceasary.

We should work on coming up with a solution that is fairest for all that:

I am a little less worried about fair, than about practical, but I agree on principle.

Also, I don't think we need to come up with a single solution. Brainstorming multiple possible solutions with their pro's and con's is good too, because in the end it's True Dungeon's job to select and implement (or not) whichever strategy will work best for their short- and long-term goals.

That said, you put together an excellent list of what a good solution should do:

Allows for people not to be hit too hard by late no shows

Allows for the occasional different run (solo, double down) while not making them completely cost prohibitive

Ensures that the maximum number of people who want to experience TD have that opportunity. This would most likely require we limit the value of the retainer.

I'd like to add:
Gives good value to players who financially support TD by buying tokens, including Treasure Enhancers.

What about a sliding scale, if you have 1 retainer, their max treasure pulls is X.if you have 2 retainers, their max treasure draws is 2X-Y, etc?
Or just make it simple and say you can only get X treasure pulls from all your retainers, regardless of how many you have?

Interesting idea. Still leaves the loophole of me buying 5 extra slots and saying that each Retainer is connected to one of my live friends... But it'd quickly go into the realm of diminishing returns after 5 Retainers.

The second idea I'm less fond of... it could get complicated if I've got a CoGF on "my" retainer, and you've got a CoA on "your" retainer, and we're told we get a max of 20 Treasure chips between us for those retainers.

I agree with TD supporting those that supported them. I honestly forget to thank people a lot too, it is a problem I am working on in general.

I think you misunderstood my 2nd point, what I meant was:
A player can only get a maximum of 20 (30?) treasure draws no matter how many retainers they have.
If I have a retainer and you have one, each of our retainers can get us each that maximum.

Neither solution fixes the zombie retainer issue, but maybe we have to find a different fix for that one.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Raven wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Raven wrote: I agree with that last comment, Wade.
I shudder at the proposed solution tho, because waiting for the market to sort itself out will probably mean (as you pointed out) fewer slots available, increased ticket cost, and lower value for thousands of players who are not trying to game the system. That can't be good for TD's longevity!

I think you are right, just waiting for the market to sort itself out could take years with a lot of people feeling negatively about the game in the interim.

I am glad we are trying to find a solution to the problems, and I also think that right now, some change is definitely neceasary.

We should work on coming up with a solution that is fairest for all that:

I am a little less worried about fair, than about practical, but I agree on principle.

Also, I don't think we need to come up with a single solution. Brainstorming multiple possible solutions with their pro's and con's is good too, because in the end it's True Dungeon's job to select and implement (or not) whichever strategy will work best for their short- and long-term goals.

That said, you put together an excellent list of what a good solution should do:

Allows for people not to be hit too hard by late no shows

Allows for the occasional different run (solo, double down) while not making them completely cost prohibitive

Ensures that the maximum number of people who want to experience TD have that opportunity. This would most likely require we limit the value of the retainer.

I'd like to add:
Gives good value to players who financially support TD by buying tokens, including Treasure Enhancers.

What about a sliding scale, if you have 1 retainer, their max treasure pulls is X.if you have 2 retainers, their max treasure draws is 2X-Y, etc?
Or just make it simple and say you can only get X treasure pulls from all your retainers, regardless of how many you have?

Interesting idea. Still leaves the loophole of me buying 5 extra slots and saying that each Retainer is connected to one of my live friends... But it'd quickly go into the realm of diminishing returns after 5 Retainers.

The second idea I'm less fond of... it could get complicated if I've got a CoGF on "my" retainer, and you've got a CoA on "your" retainer, and we're told we get a max of 20 Treasure chips between us for those retainers.

Neither of those solutions fixes the Zombie retainer issue.

X actual players, 10-X warm bodies who are just there to protect getting full loot.

The proposed solution actually encourages hiring people to come on a ghosted run and have them do nothing for 2 hours. Cool for people who might want to see the dungeon, not cool if this results in people with a negative view of the game. *I walked around with some dude who paid me $20 to stand in the corner while he played a game for 2 hours to protect his loot, was kinda boring honestly*

You are right, but I don't honestly see how we could accurately separate that from those who those who outfit their whole group.

Also, maybe one or two of those zombis ends up saying, the game would be fun if I was with my friends, let's try to play.

I don't think there are that many people with that much free time at gencon.

It could be done, but not as easily than just running with 9 empty slots

Full disclosure

When I attend GC I host TD for a group of actors, cast and crew who can not otherwise play.

I purchase 4 runs, generally one of each run both puzzle and combat

I provide builds to the entire group, cover entry costs and collect all the treasure, 10 packs and completion tokens from the runs.

I've had multiple players on my runs ask to compensate me for the ticket costs, I use the value of the treasure pulls as my reason for not allowing that.

There's very little difference between what I do and Building a Zombie Retainer run.
I don't honestly think there's a way to differentiate to a point where one can be allowed and the other punished.

I don't think it'd be nearly as hard to fill those ghosts with zombies on a 1/2/3/4 man run as you think. Step 5 feet into the hall near TD and say

I need 3 people for True Dungeon, it's free for you, I keep the loot from the run, you get to come see the dungeon and not spend $50

I really don't see it being that hard to fill. (I've done that 1 or 2 runs when we had space. I prefer to ghost up to 4 spots now. 6 seems to be an optimal number for combat and puzzle solving)

Raven wrote: Excellent post Arcanist.
I agree with you, I don't see this being a problem TODAY.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: That said I think it's a good thing that we keep watching this, keep checking the numbers and calling out when it looks like the sky is falling. It's up to the group to make sure we don't dig too deep into the hoard and collapse the cave on top of us all.

What I see happening right now (even today) is people saying, "I don't think this cave will collapse if I dig a little here" and "I'll try digging over here because it probably won't collapse since that guy hasn't collapsed it" and "Hey, let's get a bunch more shovels and see how far we can dig right here before its gonna collapse"

I just wanna have a bunch of tools & supplies on hand to shore up the walls while we're all having so much fun digging.

Absolutely agreed.

We need to make sure we've got the wood to build proper structure in the mine before we collapse it in on ourselves


I think, honestly, if we hit the space where collapse is POSSIBLE and IMMINENT it's not likely to happen over the course of a single GC weekend.

My expectation and HOPE is that if we DO hit a *collapse imminent, get out now* spot that it's fixable.

The forum posts like this are our *canary in the mine shaft* and it's good to keep watching them. If we watch carefully we can see the dead canary and get out before the mine blows.

*god the metaphors*

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Cavor wrote: When is a run considered "unsold?"

Usually when the time for the event passes and no tickets are sold.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Raven wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Raven wrote: I agree with that last comment, Wade.
I shudder at the proposed solution tho, because waiting for the market to sort itself out will probably mean (as you pointed out) fewer slots available, increased ticket cost, and lower value for thousands of players who are not trying to game the system. That can't be good for TD's longevity!

I think you are right, just waiting for the market to sort itself out could take years with a lot of people feeling negatively about the game in the interim.

I am glad we are trying to find a solution to the problems, and I also think that right now, some change is definitely neceasary.

We should work on coming up with a solution that is fairest for all that:

I am a little less worried about fair, than about practical, but I agree on principle.

Also, I don't think we need to come up with a single solution. Brainstorming multiple possible solutions with their pro's and con's is good too, because in the end it's True Dungeon's job to select and implement (or not) whichever strategy will work best for their short- and long-term goals.

That said, you put together an excellent list of what a good solution should do:

Allows for people not to be hit too hard by late no shows

Allows for the occasional different run (solo, double down) while not making them completely cost prohibitive

Ensures that the maximum number of people who want to experience TD have that opportunity. This would most likely require we limit the value of the retainer.

I'd like to add:
Gives good value to players who financially support TD by buying tokens, including Treasure Enhancers.

What about a sliding scale, if you have 1 retainer, their max treasure pulls is X.if you have 2 retainers, their max treasure draws is 2X-Y, etc?
Or just make it simple and say you can only get X treasure pulls from all your retainers, regardless of how many you have?

Interesting idea. Still leaves the loophole of me buying 5 extra slots and saying that each Retainer is connected to one of my live friends... But it'd quickly go into the realm of diminishing returns after 5 Retainers.

The second idea I'm less fond of... it could get complicated if I've got a CoGF on "my" retainer, and you've got a CoA on "your" retainer, and we're told we get a max of 20 Treasure chips between us for those retainers.

Neither of those solutions fixes the Zombie retainer issue.

X actual players, 10-X warm bodies who are just there to protect getting full loot.

The proposed solution actually encourages hiring people to come on a ghosted run and have them do nothing for 2 hours. Cool for people who might want to see the dungeon, not cool if this results in people with a negative view of the game. *I walked around with some dude who paid me $20 to stand in the corner while he played a game for 2 hours to protect his loot, was kinda boring honestly*

You are right, but I don't honestly see how we could accurately separate that from those who those who outfit their whole group.

Also, maybe one or two of those zombis ends up saying, the game would be fun if I was with my friends, let's try to play.

I don't think there are that many people with that much free time at gencon.

It could be done, but not as easily than just running with 9 empty slots

Full disclosure

When I attend GC I host TD for a group of actors, cast and crew who can not otherwise play.

I purchase 4 runs, generally one of each run both puzzle and combat

I provide builds to the entire group, cover entry costs and collect all the treasure, 10 packs and completion tokens from the runs.

I've had multiple players on my runs ask to compensate me for the ticket costs, I use the value of the treasure pulls as my reason for not allowing that.

There's very little difference between what I do and Building a Zombie Retainer run.
I don't honestly think there's a way to differentiate to a point where one can be allowed and the other punished.

I don't think it'd be nearly as hard to fill those ghosts with zombies on a 1/2/3/4 man run as you think. Step 5 feet into the hall near TD and say

I need 3 people for True Dungeon, it's free for you, I keep the loot from the run, you get to come see the dungeon and not spend $50

I really don't see it being that hard to fill. (I've done that 1 or 2 runs when we had space. I prefer to ghost up to 4 spots now. 6 seems to be an optimal number for combat and puzzle solving)

I suppose you are right. While I would never take that deal, I don't doubt that there are those that would.

Cavor wrote:

Not everyone WANTS to have 10 players in their group.
Many people buy full runs to double down (10 tickets, 5 players) as it's seen (accurately) as a more enjoyable experience
MANY runs end up with 1-2 players missing the run and current TD rules state that a single player can overrule the rest of the party on raising the difficulty on the run, potentially costing 8-9 players XP and completion tokens.

I realize that some people want to exclude others from gaming, but this in direct violation of Gencon's gaming rules. The fact that TD allows this is amazing. For filling the slot from the wait list I would make the added person agree to run at the level agreed upon by the main ticket holders. If no one is available or willing to run at that level, allow ghosting.

Let me give you an example: If I was DMing a D&D module with 6 slots and 4 players showed up with 6 six tickets and said they wanted to only run 4 with several people waiting to use generics, and then they got mad when I allowed 2 more people to join, I would honestly think to myself, these people are a-holes. Why is TD different?

Why should my purchase of an unsold run not grant me exp? If I run the run I should get EXP for it?

Anyone actually running should get XP, ghosts should not. I assumed the person buying the run for the loot would not actually run it.

TD has negotiated several changes from GenCon policies. The ticket buying system leaps to mind.

Some of the big CCG companies have their own deals. If you are a big enough fish you can get a deal.

I agree that it's unlikely that someone will buy $10k to start a farming operation.

But someone who accumulated TEs over a few years, especially if they outfit entire groups, or even just a few family members, may find they got over half way there without even trying.

That's what happened to me. I got two HoPs. I got four RoR as PYP. I got 10 CoGF (so we'd always get 4 chips) when they were PYP. I made two CoAs. I got 8 AoTF as PYP. I got more rings, making another CoA... blah blah blah. So cash-wise, I got to 158 chips for well less than $5k over four years. I'm sure many longer-term players got to 170 for even less.

The new Nuggets will get me over 170 for much less than finishing off seven CoAs, but that's gravy. I don't have to get to max to make a profit under the current situation with what I have already.

I only say all this to say, don't take too much comfort in the thought that $10k is too big a nut to crack.

Cavor wrote:

Not everyone WANTS to have 10 players in their group.
Many people buy full runs to double down (10 tickets, 5 players) as it's seen (accurately) as a more enjoyable experience
MANY runs end up with 1-2 players missing the run and current TD rules state that a single player can overrule the rest of the party on raising the difficulty on the run, potentially costing 8-9 players XP and completion tokens.

I realize that some people want to exclude others from gaming, but this in direct violation of Gencon's gaming rules. The fact that TD allows this is amazing. For filling the slot from the wait list I would make the added person agree to run at the level agreed upon by the main ticket holders. If no one is available or willing to run at that level, allow ghosting.

Let me give you an example: If I was DMing a D&D module with 6 slots and 4 players showed up with 6 six tickets and said they wanted to only run 4 with several people waiting to use generics, and then they got mad when I allowed 2 more people to join, I would honestly think to myself, these people are a-holes. Why is TD different?

Why should my purchase of an unsold run not grant me exp? If I run the run I should get EXP for it?

Anyone actually running should get XP, ghosts should not. I assumed the person buying the run for the loot would not actually run it.

D&D is $6 a run TD is $54

I've BEEN one of the 4 people at a 6 person table of D&D before when we were forced to add 2 players. Sometimes it's great, other times it's TERRIBLE when the new players don't work with the existing group dynamics.

Completely aside it's what cost my D&D team the semi finals round at the final D&D Open a few years back. We got forced to accept 2 new players in the tournament, one of whom had never played D&D before. We pre-fill our full D&D team when possible now.

*Had 2 random players at the D&D All Access the last two years, each time had 1 great new player and 1 player who caused friction in the group*


10 players is the current group cap on TD, it used to be smaller (8? 6?) but was increased when demand for tickets pushed for it. There was no room for more dungeons and no time to build extra runs so the number per run increased.

When I host players I control the run. It's my tickets, my money, my tokens and it's people I know, people who get along.

When we get to a puzzle that needs solved we can work together to solve it. It's pretty awesome actually.

Before I started pre-building my groups I used to PUG runs. It was a nightmare.

10 people in the room, I know 3 including myself. The other 7 are small groups like mine.
When we get to a puzzle everyone starts talking, then yelling, fighting.
Halfway through testing a solution, one group member decides they know better than you do and start undoing your solution with out saying anything. You lose the puzzle, there was no chance to figure out if your potential solution would have worked. The puzzle didn't beat you, infighting did. It's a HUGE negative experience, both of my fellow players talked about quitting TD after that run, I started hosting instead.

That is a big part of why I would GREATLY prefer to ghost a player over having a random waitlister.
That's also assuming I own the missing ticket. If it's open in the system or not physically in my hand that's another matter all together.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
It's been suggested multiple times. It's one of the solutions to the *buying out runs purely to farm treasure* but I'm not sure if it would open up more dungeon runs or just result in larger quantities of treasure being distributed.

Hopefully, Both.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I agree that it's unlikely that someone will buy $10k to start a farming operation.

But someone who accumulated TEs over a few years, especially if they outfit entire groups, or even just a few family members, may find they got over half way there without even trying.

That's what happened to me. I got two HoPs. I got four RoR as PYP. I got 10 CoGF (so we'd always get 4 chips) when they were PYP. I made two CoAs. I got 8 AoTF as PYP. I got more rings, making another CoA... blah blah blah. So cash-wise, I got to 158 chips for well less than $5k over four years. I'm sure many longer-term players got to 170 for even less.

The new Nuggets will get me over 170 for much less than finishing off seven CoAs, but that's gravy. I don't have to get to max to make a profit under the current situation with what I have already.

I only say all this to say, don't take too much comfort in the thought that $10k is too big a nut to crack.

Absolutely true.

But you are a forum member, you enjoy the game, you understand the URTE situation and the state of the treasure *cave* we live in.

It's not likely that you're going to turn your current token into a money making scheme and start buying out runs to escalate your own profits at the detriment of TD.