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TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #169

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Harlax wrote: Do we really have a problem that is either frequent or severe enough to justify a whole new set of rules with just as much potential for additional bad feeling as the system that exists?


I just read this whole thread. This is the real question, and I am fairly certain the answer is no.


It doesn't happen often, but I'm not a fan of the current rule. So if there's a better way that keeps things simple why not make a change. Laz's idea is the best. Character cards are given out at the start time and selection begins. If two (or more) people want the same class, roll. Done. Super easy. And I disagree with anyone saying this would be a time kill. Disagreement's don't happen often and when they do it's usually between two people. Two die rolls. Done in 10 seconds.

Edit:. And if there's no dice then pick a number. Or rock paper scissors. Done.


It does take time. Remember we are talking about a proposed rule that says no one can choose until the official start time. So all players have to wait to set up their build.

Even if only two players are in conflict. So we roll a die. Player 1 wins. Player 2 looks at the three classes remaining and likes none of them. Can they turn to player 3 and say “let’s roll.” A couple of iterations later and multiple players are redoing builds.

Worst case scenario? Sure. But if conflicts are rare under the current way of doing things, we are replacing one rare bad scenario with another.


You lose the roll you get what's left. That's more equitable then someone coming in last minute and saying "Even though you were here before me I'll take your character class because I'm a third level jerk". Because at that point your now left with an upset player who still has to spend time redoing their build. Which is worse IMO.
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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #170

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Harlax wrote: Do we really have a problem that is either frequent or severe enough to justify a whole new set of rules with just as much potential for additional bad feeling as the system that exists?


I just read this whole thread. This is the real question, and I am fairly certain the answer is no.


It doesn't happen often, but I'm not a fan of the current rule. So if there's a better way that keeps things simple why not make a change. Laz's idea is the best. Character cards are given out at the start time and selection begins. If two (or more) people want the same class, roll. Done. Super easy. And I disagree with anyone saying this would be a time kill. Disagreement's don't happen often and when they do it's usually between two people. Two die rolls. Done in 10 seconds.

Edit:. And if there's no dice then pick a number. Or rock paper scissors. Done.


It does take time. Remember we are talking about a proposed rule that says no one can choose until the official start time. So all players have to wait to set up their build.

Even if only two players are in conflict. So we roll a die. Player 1 wins. Player 2 looks at the three classes remaining and likes none of them. Can they turn to player 3 and say “let’s roll.” A couple of iterations later and multiple players are redoing builds.

Worst case scenario? Sure. But if conflicts are rare under the current way of doing things, we are replacing one rare bad scenario with another.


You lose the roll you get what's left. That's more equitable then someone coming in last minute and saying "Even though you were here before me I'll take your character class because I'm a third level jerk". Because at that point your now left with an upset player who still has to spend time redoing their build. Which is worse IMO.


There is nothing equitable in “you get what’s left.”

And you didn’t address the implications of no one being able to choose until the official start time.
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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #171

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Harlax wrote: Do we really have a problem that is either frequent or severe enough to justify a whole new set of rules with just as much potential for additional bad feeling as the system that exists?


I just read this whole thread. This is the real question, and I am fairly certain the answer is no.


It doesn't happen often, but I'm not a fan of the current rule. So if there's a better way that keeps things simple why not make a change. Laz's idea is the best. Character cards are given out at the start time and selection begins. If two (or more) people want the same class, roll. Done. Super easy. And I disagree with anyone saying this would be a time kill. Disagreement's don't happen often and when they do it's usually between two people. Two die rolls. Done in 10 seconds.

Edit:. And if there's no dice then pick a number. Or rock paper scissors. Done.


It does take time. Remember we are talking about a proposed rule that says no one can choose until the official start time. So all players have to wait to set up their build.

Even if only two players are in conflict. So we roll a die. Player 1 wins. Player 2 looks at the three classes remaining and likes none of them. Can they turn to player 3 and say “let’s roll.” A couple of iterations later and multiple players are redoing builds.

Worst case scenario? Sure. But if conflicts are rare under the current way of doing things, we are replacing one rare bad scenario with another.


You lose the roll you get what's left. That's more equitable then someone coming in last minute and saying "Even though you were here before me I'll take your character class because I'm a third level jerk". Because at that point your now left with an upset player who still has to spend time redoing their build. Which is worse IMO.


There is nothing equitable in “you get what’s left.”

And you didn’t address the implications of no one being able to choose until the official start time.


Well you only get what's left because you lost the roll. The roll itself is the equitable component. And I don't see why players couldn't discuss what classes they would like prior to the start time.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #172

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Harlax wrote: Do we really have a problem that is either frequent or severe enough to justify a whole new set of rules with just as much potential for additional bad feeling as the system that exists?


I just read this whole thread. This is the real question, and I am fairly certain the answer is no.


It doesn't happen often, but I'm not a fan of the current rule. So if there's a better way that keeps things simple why not make a change. Laz's idea is the best. Character cards are given out at the start time and selection begins. If two (or more) people want the same class, roll. Done. Super easy. And I disagree with anyone saying this would be a time kill. Disagreement's don't happen often and when they do it's usually between two people. Two die rolls. Done in 10 seconds.

Edit:. And if there's no dice then pick a number. Or rock paper scissors. Done.


It does take time. Remember we are talking about a proposed rule that says no one can choose until the official start time. So all players have to wait to set up their build.

Even if only two players are in conflict. So we roll a die. Player 1 wins. Player 2 looks at the three classes remaining and likes none of them. Can they turn to player 3 and say “let’s roll.” A couple of iterations later and multiple players are redoing builds.

Worst case scenario? Sure. But if conflicts are rare under the current way of doing things, we are replacing one rare bad scenario with another.


You lose the roll you get what's left. That's more equitable then someone coming in last minute and saying "Even though you were here before me I'll take your character class because I'm a third level jerk". Because at that point your now left with an upset player who still has to spend time redoing their build. Which is worse IMO.


There is nothing equitable in “you get what’s left.”

And you didn’t address the implications of no one being able to choose until the official start time.

I never said you couldn’t work
It out before hand. It’s if there is an issue it wouldn’t be
Resolved
Until
Start time( at latest).

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #173

So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).

Class Selection Rules need to be posted on a sign in coaching room.
Class Selection Rules need to be a new card that is on top of the character cards.
The Character cards are delivered to the room near 5 minutes before the start time of the ticket.

The sign/card reads something to the following:

Class Selection Process
Please discuss among yourself and try to pick classes in a friendly and civil manner. If that fails follow this selection process when the coach brings your party cards (5 minutes before the event).
  1. Class selection process begins 5 minutes prior to the ticketed time. This is to ensure classes are selected by the ticketed time.
  2. Please start with the classes in alphabetic order (Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard).
  3. Ask if anyone wants the first class. If only one person would like it they then get to play that class. In the event more than one person wants the class roll off. Only ties continue to roll off.
  4. Proceed to the next class.
  5. If you lose a roll off you may not go back and attempt to roll off a previous class.
  6. Continue until you are through all 12 classes or everyone in the room has selected a class.
  7. Any ticketed adventure arriving after the class selection process has started can participate in the selection of the remaining classes.
  8. If the class selection process has been completed but there are still missing players they get to select from the remaining classes in the order they arrive in the room.

There will be no 3rd player level pulling rank
There is no going back and saying I lost the roll of for Wizard I now want Bard. If you wanted Bard you should have rolled off for it originally.

If all 10 players have selected classes and the coach has not recorded those two players stats and if they mutually agree then they can switch classes (probably not needed to document but just calling it out for clarity).

Ed
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Last edit: by MasterED.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #174

  • Ro-gan
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Fiddy wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off


Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.


Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.


It takes you 5-6 minutes to roll dice??


It might take that long to find a die. I had someone come to a coaching room I was in last year asking to borrow a die because someone wanted to roll off, but noone in that run had a die. I got the impression we weren't the first ones he'd asked.


Fiddy, you need to turn in your Geek Decoder Ring and Geek Membership Card. There is no excuse attending a gaming convention and not having dice on you at all times. LOL!!

Heck! I have a complete set of dice in my car at all times... just in case.

True Story: A few years ago I was leaving work when my then-online (Roll20) gaming group had already started. I called the DM from my car's blue tooth and rolled the dice in my center console's cup holder.
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Last edit: by Ro-gan.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #175

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).

Class Selection Rules need to be posted on a sign in coaching room.
Class Selection Rules need to be a new card that is on top of the character cards.
The Character cards are delivered to the room near 5 minutes before the start time of the ticket.

The sign/card reads something to the following:

Class Selection Process
Please discuss among yourself and follow this selection process.

  1. Class selection process begins 5 minutes prior to the ticketed time. This is to ensure classes are selected by the ticketed time.
  2. Please start with the classes in alphabetic order (Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard).
  3. Ask if anyone wants the first class. If only one person would like it they then get to play that class. In the event more than one person wants the class roll off. Only ties continue to roll off.
  4. Proceed to the next class.
  5. If you lose a roll off you may not go back and attempt to roll off a previous class.
  6. Continue until you are through all 12 classes or everyone in the room has selected a class.
  7. Any ticketed adventure arriving after the class selection process has started can participate in the selection of the remaining classes.
  8. If the class selection process has been completed but there are still missing players they get to select from the remaining classes in the order they arrive in the room.

There will be no 3rd player level pulling rank
There is no going back and saying I lost the roll of for Wizard I now want Bard. If you wanted Bard you should have rolled off for it originally.

If all 10 players have selected classes and the coach has not recorded those two players stats and if they mutually agree then they can switch classes (probably not needed to document but just calling it out for clarity).

Ed


I like all of this except the alphabetical order. If my 2 favorite classes are Wizard and elf Wizard, I shouldn't have to only ever choose elf Wizard first just to give myself a chance at both.

I realize I dont have a better solution necessarily. Just pointing out a potential issue.

Can we get an idea of how often this really happens from our coaching brethren? What I recall is something along the lines of once per shift or less, correct?


Ro-gan wrote:

Fiddy wrote: It might take that long to find a die. I had someone come to a coaching room I was in last year asking to borrow a die because someone wanted to roll off, but noone in that run had a die. I got the impression we weren't the first ones he'd asked.


Fiddy, you need to turn in your Geek Decoder Ring and Geek Membership Card. There is no excuse attending a gaming convention and not having dice on you at all times. LOL!!

Heck! I have a complete set of dice in my car at all times... just in case.

True Story: A few years ago I was leaving work when my then-online (Roll20) gaming group had already started. I called the DM from my car's blue tooth and rolled the dice in my center console's cup holder.

I think you're misinterpreting the story. Someone wanted to borrow a die from Fiddy. He didnt say whether he had one or not.
That person had asked other groups before Fiddy.

Also, while I love dice as much as anyone, there are apps for that now if necessary.
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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #176

As a coach, I can say it happens very rarely. You all know I coach quite a bit. In all my time I can only recall one time when players couldn’t work it out amicably, rolled off, and the losing player was visibly upset. I have seen only a very few couple of times a roll off was necessary and not within the last couple of years.
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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #177

  • Ro-gan
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Wade Schwendemann wrote:

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).

Class Selection Rules need to be posted on a sign in coaching room.
Class Selection Rules need to be a new card that is on top of the character cards.
The Character cards are delivered to the room near 5 minutes before the start time of the ticket.

The sign/card reads something to the following:

Class Selection Process
Please discuss among yourself and follow this selection process.

  1. Class selection process begins 5 minutes prior to the ticketed time. This is to ensure classes are selected by the ticketed time.
  2. Please start with the classes in alphabetic order (Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard).
  3. Ask if anyone wants the first class. If only one person would like it they then get to play that class. In the event more than one person wants the class roll off. Only ties continue to roll off.
  4. Proceed to the next class.
  5. If you lose a roll off you may not go back and attempt to roll off a previous class.
  6. Continue until you are through all 12 classes or everyone in the room has selected a class.
  7. Any ticketed adventure arriving after the class selection process has started can participate in the selection of the remaining classes.
  8. If the class selection process has been completed but there are still missing players they get to select from the remaining classes in the order they arrive in the room.

There will be no 3rd player level pulling rank
There is no going back and saying I lost the roll of for Wizard I now want Bard. If you wanted Bard you should have rolled off for it originally.

If all 10 players have selected classes and the coach has not recorded those two players stats and if they mutually agree then they can switch classes (probably not needed to document but just calling it out for clarity).

Ed


I like all of this except the alphabetical order. If my 2 favorite classes are Wizard and elf Wizard, I shouldn't have to only ever choose elf Wizard first just to give myself a chance at both.

I realize I dont have a better solution necessarily. Just pointing out a potential issue.

Can we get an idea of how often this really happens from our coaching brethren? What I recall is something along the lines of once per shift or less, correct?


Ro-gan wrote:

Fiddy wrote: It might take that long to find a die. I had someone come to a coaching room I was in last year asking to borrow a die because someone wanted to roll off, but noone in that run had a die. I got the impression we weren't the first ones he'd asked.


Fiddy, you need to turn in your Geek Decoder Ring and Geek Membership Card. There is no excuse attending a gaming convention and not having dice on you at all times. LOL!!

Heck! I have a complete set of dice in my car at all times... just in case.

True Story: A few years ago I was leaving work when my then-online (Roll20) gaming group had already started. I called the DM from my car's blue tooth and rolled the dice in my center console's cup holder.

I think you're misinterpreting the story. Someone wanted to borrow a die from Fiddy. He didnt say whether he had one or not.
That person had asked other groups before Fiddy.

Also, while I love dice as much as anyone, there are apps for that now if necessary.


It's funnier my way. He knows I'm only joking by assuming he didn't have any dice on him. ;-)
"It's treason then."



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Last edit: by Ro-gan.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #178

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).

Class Selection Rules need to be posted on a sign in coaching room.
Class Selection Rules need to be a new card that is on top of the character cards.
The Character cards are delivered to the room near 5 minutes before the start time of the ticket.

The sign/card reads something to the following:

Class Selection Process
Please discuss among yourself and follow this selection process.

  1. Class selection process begins 5 minutes prior to the ticketed time. This is to ensure classes are selected by the ticketed time.
  2. Please start with the classes in alphabetic order (Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard).
  3. Ask if anyone wants the first class. If only one person would like it they then get to play that class. In the event more than one person wants the class roll off. Only ties continue to roll off.
  4. Proceed to the next class.
  5. If you lose a roll off you may not go back and attempt to roll off a previous class.
  6. Continue until you are through all 12 classes or everyone in the room has selected a class.
  7. Any ticketed adventure arriving after the class selection process has started can participate in the selection of the remaining classes.
  8. If the class selection process has been completed but there are still missing players they get to select from the remaining classes in the order they arrive in the room.

There will be no 3rd player level pulling rank
There is no going back and saying I lost the roll of for Wizard I now want Bard. If you wanted Bard you should have rolled off for it originally.

If all 10 players have selected classes and the coach has not recorded those two players stats and if they mutually agree then they can switch classes (probably not needed to document but just calling it out for clarity).

Ed


Yes, the rules should be posted in the coaching room. I like the idea of a sign and a card on top of the character cards.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #179

Ro-gan wrote: It's funnier my way. He knows I'm only joking by assuming he didn't have any dice on him. ;-)


That's fair. I have a habit of stepping all over other people's jokes, particularly in text only formats.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 7 months ago #180

Rob F wrote:

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).

Class Selection Rules need to be posted on a sign in coaching room.
Class Selection Rules need to be a new card that is on top of the character cards.
The Character cards are delivered to the room near 5 minutes before the start time of the ticket.

The sign/card reads something to the following:

Class Selection Process
Please discuss among yourself and follow this selection process.

  1. Class selection process begins 5 minutes prior to the ticketed time. This is to ensure classes are selected by the ticketed time.
  2. Please start with the classes in alphabetic order (Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard).
  3. Ask if anyone wants the first class. If only one person would like it they then get to play that class. In the event more than one person wants the class roll off. Only ties continue to roll off.
  4. Proceed to the next class.
  5. If you lose a roll off you may not go back and attempt to roll off a previous class.
  6. Continue until you are through all 12 classes or everyone in the room has selected a class.
  7. Any ticketed adventure arriving after the class selection process has started can participate in the selection of the remaining classes.
  8. If the class selection process has been completed but there are still missing players they get to select from the remaining classes in the order they arrive in the room.

There will be no 3rd player level pulling rank
There is no going back and saying I lost the roll of for Wizard I now want Bard. If you wanted Bard you should have rolled off for it originally.

If all 10 players have selected classes and the coach has not recorded those two players stats and if they mutually agree then they can switch classes (probably not needed to document but just calling it out for clarity).

Ed


Yes, the rules should be posted in the coaching room. I like the idea of a sign and a card on top of the character cards.


Having the rules posted and potentially an extra card on top of the pile of characters I can definitely agree with.

Not a huge fan of alphabetical order. I'd suggest going with whatever classes are most-contended on the run first. With the suggested rules, what happens in the odd case that all ten people would like to play Wizard? 9 lose the roll-off. What happens then?

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