TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

Ro-gan wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.

It takes you 5-6 minutes to roll dice??

It might take that long to find a die. I had someone come to a coaching room I was in last year asking to borrow a die because someone wanted to roll off, but noone in that run had a die. I got the impression we weren't the first ones he'd asked.

Fiddy wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.

It takes you 5-6 minutes to roll dice??

It might take that long to find a die. I had someone come to a coaching room I was in last year asking to borrow a die because someone wanted to roll off, but noone in that run had a die. I got the impression we weren't the first ones he'd asked.

I have had that happen enough times that I just always bring a dice with me when coaching now. Always be prepared.

While I think there are some good, sound and logical ideas presented, I still say the reality is that most people assume it is first come first served and will argue in favor of that regardless of whatever else you put in place. Look, I saw a guy this year come into the room and pick his class. When another player showed up, still on time and wanted to roll-off for the class, he argued in favor of first come first served. He was told that wasn't the rule. He backed down, but grumbled and complained all the way through coaching. He was clearly not happy and it made a lot of people feel uncomfortable. So you can change the rule any way you want and it is not going to make everyone happy. It's unfortunate, but true.

I also saw several coaching rooms this year need the full 24 minutes to fill out the party card. I'm not in favor of any rule that takes away from that time. While I would not make first come first served an official rule, I'm ok letting players assume they can do so.

Officially, I think the rule should be that if 2 or more players arrive prior to the official start time and want to play the same class, there should be a roll-off. Whoever loses the rolloff must select from whatever is left (No additional rolloffs for their 2nd or 3rd choice). That will give them incentive to try to work something out before it comes to a rolloff. That's pretty close to the way things are today, but if you want to make it official, then post it on the wall. Of course no one will read it, but at least it can be pointed to when they start to complain.

And I would lose the 3rd level perk. I have seen way too many players interpret that as they can bump anyone who is lower level (they conveniently forget about the level 3 cutoff).

Ro-gan wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.

It takes you 5-6 minutes to roll dice??

Obviously not. But if class selection can not happen until start time, it’s going to take time for everyone to make their selection. And they will be that much further behind on laying out tokens. Especially if they have to rework their build.

Flik wrote:

Guedoji wrote: First come first served seems fine.

To be clear, I will typically let a new player take my preferred class. But only if they've shown they have prepared for it. I've even lent my special tokens to a new player if I see that had their heart set on it. But to be honest... it pisses me off when I plan for my runs for almost a year in advance, pay tons of money for tokens, struggle through ticket purchasing and planning to coordinate a group with my friends, drop hundreds of dollars on the credit card to purchase, return, purchase tickets to get enough slots, then work to build the perfect set up for my team and then not be able to use the tokens because someone who's never played, had no tokens just thinks a class sounds cool.

Note: I have never challenged a person for the card, I've thought about it... I try to show up 30 minutes early, unfortunately it doesn't always work. I dont think its elitist, us vets (just hit lvl 7) put our hearts and coin into this game.

This is pretty close to my situation too. I started TD at Gen Con 2016 but me and my wife didn’t get into buying tokens until last year. We are now both level 6 after only a couple of years attending Gen Con and Origins.

She loves playing rogue but so do a ton of others. So I got her the rogue relic necklace and have been working on buying tokens for her build over the last year (Guided Strike, Libram, etc). This year we had three regular dungeon runs at Gen Con. We showed up 30 mins early for E1 and were first ones so she took rogue. The other two runs we showed up 25 minutes early and there were already people in the room who had selected rogue. No big deal I expected this. I created contingency builds on the app and she still had a good time playing Dwarf Fighter. We never even thought about asking for a roll off. I just simply asked what is left. In E2 the person who took rogue Had some tokens but was only a normal build and the E3 rogue had legendaries.

But why should I upgrade that relic necklace to Raphael’s? I honestly want to build it but I cannot even guarantee she’ll ever get to even use it. After seeing how many people get to the room early and seeing how popular rogue is I don’t see a point in buying any rogue tokens any more. That will directly cost TD money because I’m buying less. I even loaned it my rogue tokens to both rogue players because they didn’t even have libram.

On another note I love playing cleric and never have to worry about the class being taken, so that’s a plus for me lol. From what I can tell it’s one of the least played classes.

Well, one easy way to reduce the demand for Rogue is to remove the extra treasure tokens you get from the Rogue Box. I still maintain that that is a major motivating factor for a lot of Rogues and wannabe Rogues....

Here's another possible solution:

Someone creates a simple app or website that optimizes people's class preferences.

Each player enters in their preferred ranking of classes. The computer program optimizes giving the most people their Top X picks. In the case of ties, it automatically randomizes who gets it.

Then you can just blame the program or randomness. It'll be like the TD Sorting Hat....

Incognito wrote: Here's another possible solution:

Someone creates a simple app or website that optimizes people's class preferences.

Each player enters in their preferred ranking of classes. The computer program optimizes giving the most people their Top X picks. In the case of ties, it automatically randomizes who gets it.

Then you can just blame the program or randomness. It'll be like the TD Sorting Hat....

Or they get a random number at check in and that determines selection order.

Do we really have a problem that is either frequent or severe enough to justify a whole new set of rules with just as much potential for additional bad feeling as the system that exists?

Harlax wrote: Do we really have a problem that is either frequent or severe enough to justify a whole new set of rules with just as much potential for additional bad feeling as the system that exists?

I just read this whole thread. This is the real question, and I am fairly certain the answer is no.

jpotter wrote:

Harlax wrote: Do we really have a problem that is either frequent or severe enough to justify a whole new set of rules with just as much potential for additional bad feeling as the system that exists?

I just read this whole thread. This is the real question, and I am fairly certain the answer is no.

It doesn't happen often, but I'm not a fan of the current rule. So if there's a better way that keeps things simple why not make a change. Laz's idea is the best. Character cards are given out at the start time and selection begins. If two (or more) people want the same class, roll. Done. Super easy. And I disagree with anyone saying this would be a time kill. Disagreement's don't happen often and when they do it's usually between two people. Two die rolls. Done in 10 seconds.

Edit:. And if there's no dice then pick a number. Or rock paper scissors. Done.

Or a D2

Laz’s solution is essentially the current system with the 3rd level perk removed. Which is fine really.

I think it speaks volumes about the positivity and friendliness of this community that everyone is wracking their brains for a way to please everyone and avoid hurt feelings. I think that is awesome.

However, If people are going to get upset about not getting their preferred class, they are going to get upset. Whatever method results in them not getting the class will not take away that sting. If they are the type of person who is going to grumble and complain about rolling and losing, then I believe that no fair solution is going to work for them.

Rob F wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Harlax wrote: Do we really have a problem that is either frequent or severe enough to justify a whole new set of rules with just as much potential for additional bad feeling as the system that exists?

I just read this whole thread. This is the real question, and I am fairly certain the answer is no.

It doesn't happen often, but I'm not a fan of the current rule. So if there's a better way that keeps things simple why not make a change. Laz's idea is the best. Character cards are given out at the start time and selection begins. If two (or more) people want the same class, roll. Done. Super easy. And I disagree with anyone saying this would be a time kill. Disagreement's don't happen often and when they do it's usually between two people. Two die rolls. Done in 10 seconds.

Edit:. And if there's no dice then pick a number. Or rock paper scissors. Done.

It does take time. Remember we are talking about a proposed rule that says no one can choose until the official start time. So all players have to wait to set up their build.

Even if only two players are in conflict. So we roll a die. Player 1 wins. Player 2 looks at the three classes remaining and likes none of them. Can they turn to player 3 and say “let’s roll.” A couple of iterations later and multiple players are redoing builds.

Worst case scenario? Sure. But if conflicts are rare under the current way of doing things, we are replacing one rare bad scenario with another.