TOPIC: +5 Final Transmute Recipes

If the monster tokens increased to $10 (Golden Fleece at $100) because of the new recipes, I wonder if it's worth transmuting the Bead. I'm not sure +2 to Saves and Free movement is worth $180. I do think +3 to Saves and Free Movement would be.

Mike Steele wrote: If the monster tokens increased to $10 (Golden Fleece at $100) because of the new recipes, I wonder if it's worth transmuting the Bead. I'm not sure +2 to Saves and Free movement is worth $180. I do think +3 to Saves and Free Movement would be.

If a lot of people make fewer beads and dump the bits on the market, they may not go to $10.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Chris Heuer wrote:
Figurine of Power: Dog (***) Heal another character 4hp 1/game

• 100 GP Jade Sculpture or 100 GP Malachite Sculpture
• 4× Darkwood Plank
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

4 Darkwood Plank is too much for this. Charm of Health (+2 health in charm slot) is effectively half of this and didn't take any trade goods. Horn of the Blessed Ox (heal 2hp 1/game slotless) is also effectively half of this and SLOTLESS and only required 1 Minotaur Hide. Given those it seems like this should be more like 2 Darkwood Plank, especially since it takes up a very limited slot.

Figurine of Power: Dog lets you heal _another_ character for 4 points of damage, so it's not comparable with either of those examples.

Compare it with Ultra Rare Figurine of Power: Phoenix - it's 20% of the power for ~20% of the price of an in print UR - and more classes can use it.

Token prices aren’t linear

Byr’s Redoubt Plate is +13 AC. It goes for what, $1300? That’s $100 per AC, plus or minus.

Based on that, only a silly person would argue that this year’s common +4 AC Tooth Armor is worth $400

Not calling you silly. Just pointing out the price curve is more exponential than linear. And it seems to be across the board, including weapons, TEs, you name it.

Does a $100 UR have fifty times the hit bonus and do fifty times more damage than a $2 rare? Uh... no.

From that perspective, your point that Dog is 20% of a Phoenix for 20% of the price is an argument either the Dog is way too dear or the Phoenix is a super bargain.

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: If the monster tokens increased to $10 (Golden Fleece at $100) because of the new recipes, I wonder if it's worth transmuting the Bead. I'm not sure +2 to Saves and Free movement is worth $180. I do think +3 to Saves and Free Movement would be.

If a lot of people make fewer beads and dump the bits on the market, they may not go to $10.

But it’s my understanding that that’s the goal, so I guess we’ll see. I actually think they’ll go higher than $10 at some point.

I’m not hoping for that by any means, but I’m sure some people are.

Who is the target of the whetstone? The total Materials shouldn't cost much more than 25 to 35 given you can find +2 weapons for 40 to 60...

About the only class I think it is interesting to right now at this cost is monk, since the only ur weapon is the Viper strike fangs and those are super expensive

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Chris Heuer wrote: Free movement is a worthless effect when the GMs always say it doesn't work because of "magic".

Can you explain this scenario a bit more?

I've seen free movement be very impactful and applied to a players advantage several times in the last few years:

In 2015:
Water Weird pulled people into a water vortex - free movement prevented it.
Ethereal Hunter grabbed a player - free movement prevented it.
Drow Assassin had webs that players got stuck in - free movement prevented it.

TDC:
Gelatinous Cube captured a player - free movement prevented it.

It doesn't come up all the time, but I haven't seen it negated in situations where it seems like it should apply?

On paper I agree, but you know at least once on each of those years I had a DM tell me my free movement would not work because reasons. It's a training issue to be sure but it still happens a lot.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: If the monster tokens increased to $10 (Golden Fleece at $100) because of the new recipes, I wonder if it's worth transmuting the Bead. I'm not sure +2 to Saves and Free movement is worth $180. I do think +3 to Saves and Free Movement would be.

If a lot of people make fewer beads and dump the bits on the market, they may not go to $10.

But it’s my understanding that that’s the goal, so I guess we’ll see. I actually think they’ll go higher than $10 at some point.

I’m not hoping for that by any means, but I’m sure some people are.

I am with you. I hope not.

Endgame wrote: Who is the target of the whetstone? The total Materials shouldn't cost much more than 25 to 35 given you can find +2 weapons for 40 to 60...

About the only class I think it is interesting to right now at this cost is monk, since the only ur weapon is the Viper strike fangs and those are super expensive

The whetstone is future proof and flexible.

You benefit if a new rare is printed in the future with a better damage wheel.

You benefit if the season features +3 damage on the weapons for the year's environment.

You benefit if you're playing a backup class that can't use the aforementioned $50 +2 weapon.

You benefit if you end up having to move to your backup combat, which for most players will typically be ranged.

I think the target would be anyone who wants an UR weapon, but understands that UR weapons can get outclassed extremely quickly. Or a red level player who appreciates versatility.

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Chris Heuer wrote: Free movement is a worthless effect when the GMs always say it doesn't work because of "magic".

Can you explain this scenario a bit more?

I've seen free movement be very impactful and applied to a players advantage several times in the last few years:

In 2015:
Water Weird pulled people into a water vortex - free movement prevented it.
Ethereal Hunter grabbed a player - free movement prevented it.
Drow Assassin had webs that players got stuck in - free movement prevented it.

TDC:
Gelatinous Cube captured a player - free movement prevented it.

It doesn't come up all the time, but I haven't seen it negated in situations where it seems like it should apply?

On paper I agree, but you know at least once on each of those years I had a DM tell me my free movement would not work because reasons. It's a training issue to be sure but it still happens a lot.

This. Or at least I hope it is a training issue. Like in my review, I had two DMs tell me that enemies did s special 'unpreventable' type of a common damage (one cold, the other poison); that is was not Eldritch but that may tokens would not prevent any of the damage. I expect this is a training issue.

I realize not every DM can know every token effect, but they should know 'Free Movement protects from this', 'tokens reduce/prevent this damage', and probably a few other common things I am not thinking of because I'm still not awake.

On the other hand, if TPTB are specifically saying that a monster does 'special, unpreventable cold damage' that ignore all our tokens, or 'a special version of Slow that bypasses Free Movement', then that's a whole other ball of wax

Xavon wrote:

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Chris Heuer wrote: Free movement is a worthless effect when the GMs always say it doesn't work because of "magic".

Can you explain this scenario a bit more?

I've seen free movement be very impactful and applied to a players advantage several times in the last few years:

In 2015:
Water Weird pulled people into a water vortex - free movement prevented it.
Ethereal Hunter grabbed a player - free movement prevented it.
Drow Assassin had webs that players got stuck in - free movement prevented it.

TDC:
Gelatinous Cube captured a player - free movement prevented it.

It doesn't come up all the time, but I haven't seen it negated in situations where it seems like it should apply?

On paper I agree, but you know at least once on each of those years I had a DM tell me my free movement would not work because reasons. It's a training issue to be sure but it still happens a lot.

This. Or at least I hope it is a training issue. Like in my review, I had two DMs tell me that enemies did s special 'unpreventable' type of a common damage (one cold, the other poison); that is was not Eldritch but that may tokens would not prevent any of the damage. I expect this is a training issue.

I realize not every DM can know every token effect, but they should know 'Free Movement protects from this', 'tokens reduce/prevent this damage', and probably a few other common things I am not thinking of because I'm still not awake.

On the other hand, if TPTB are specifically saying that a monster does 'special, unpreventable cold damage' that ignore all our tokens, or 'a special version of Slow that bypasses Free Movement', then that's a whole other ball of wax

Also calling it now, next year there will be reports of "mega surprise" bypassing normal can not be surprised, and all HC+ monsters will have +10 initiative, just a hunch.

Picc wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Chris Heuer wrote: Free movement is a worthless effect when the GMs always say it doesn't work because of "magic".

Can you explain this scenario a bit more?

I've seen free movement be very impactful and applied to a players advantage several times in the last few years:

In 2015:
Water Weird pulled people into a water vortex - free movement prevented it.
Ethereal Hunter grabbed a player - free movement prevented it.
Drow Assassin had webs that players got stuck in - free movement prevented it.

TDC:
Gelatinous Cube captured a player - free movement prevented it.

It doesn't come up all the time, but I haven't seen it negated in situations where it seems like it should apply?

On paper I agree, but you know at least once on each of those years I had a DM tell me my free movement would not work because reasons. It's a training issue to be sure but it still happens a lot.

This. Or at least I hope it is a training issue. Like in my review, I had two DMs tell me that enemies did s special 'unpreventable' type of a common damage (one cold, the other poison); that is was not Eldritch but that may tokens would not prevent any of the damage. I expect this is a training issue.

I realize not every DM can know every token effect, but they should know 'Free Movement protects from this', 'tokens reduce/prevent this damage', and probably a few other common things I am not thinking of because I'm still not awake.

On the other hand, if TPTB are specifically saying that a monster does 'special, unpreventable cold damage' that ignore all our tokens, or 'a special version of Slow that bypasses Free Movement', then that's a whole other ball of wax

Also calling it now, next year there will be reports of "mega surprise" bypassing normal can not be surprised, and all HC+ monsters will have +10 initiative, just a hunch.

At least to regard for free movement, its a training issue, although I would still like to hear specific incidents.

The modules all specify the free movement effects for the rooms I listed.

I can't tell if people are saying: "I was caught in the Water Weird's Vortex and the DM said free movement didn't help" or if they are saying "I think free movement should have allowed me to walk along the rainbow bridge and it didn't."

One is a training issue, one is a player disagreeing with a module.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Chris Heuer wrote: Free movement is a worthless effect when the GMs always say it doesn't work because of "magic".

Can you explain this scenario a bit more?

I've seen free movement be very impactful and applied to a players advantage several times in the last few years:

In 2015:
Water Weird pulled people into a water vortex - free movement prevented it.
Ethereal Hunter grabbed a player - free movement prevented it.
Drow Assassin had webs that players got stuck in - free movement prevented it.

TDC:
Gelatinous Cube captured a player - free movement prevented it.

It doesn't come up all the time, but I haven't seen it negated in situations where it seems like it should apply?

On paper I agree, but you know at least once on each of those years I had a DM tell me my free movement would not work because reasons. It's a training issue to be sure but it still happens a lot.

This. Or at least I hope it is a training issue. Like in my review, I had two DMs tell me that enemies did s special 'unpreventable' type of a common damage (one cold, the other poison); that is was not Eldritch but that may tokens would not prevent any of the damage. I expect this is a training issue.

I realize not every DM can know every token effect, but they should know 'Free Movement protects from this', 'tokens reduce/prevent this damage', and probably a few other common things I am not thinking of because I'm still not awake.

On the other hand, if TPTB are specifically saying that a monster does 'special, unpreventable cold damage' that ignore all our tokens, or 'a special version of Slow that bypasses Free Movement', then that's a whole other ball of wax

Also calling it now, next year there will be reports of "mega surprise" bypassing normal can not be surprised, and all HC+ monsters will have +10 initiative, just a hunch.

At least to regard for free movement, its a training issue, although I would still like to hear specific incidents.

The modules all specify the free movement effects for the rooms I listed.

I can't tell if people are saying: "I was caught in the Water Weird's Vortex and the DM said free movement didn't help" or if they are saying "I think free movement should have allowed me to walk along the rainbow bridge and it didn't."

One is a training issue, one is a player disagreeing with a module.

I have been playing for only 3 years but I can’t think of a single time free movement was even part of any rooms I have been in.