TOPIC: Transmute Recipes -- Part Two

Picc wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I am a bit worried about the amount of monster tokens in treasure boxes decreasing. I know we won't be increasing the number of runs we do, in fact we decreased them this year due to the large increase in price.

It's the first concrete example of the dilution in the treasure mix Brad has been predicting for years. Which in a certain sense even make the TEs less fun as they start to feel mandatory just to tread water.

And people always told me I was wrong, or that Jeff would figure it out. I guess this is what that looks like.

Fiddy wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Due to the expansion of TD runs in the last few years, Monster Bits (and Golden Fleece) have become much more common.

There are more of them, but there are also more people looking for them.

I really am questioning just how common they've become. As of the time I'm writing this (which likely is relying on some out of date info): Kirk apparently has 6 Fleece for sale, Trent appears to have 0, Mike Steele has 0, Matthew Hayward has 5, Chad has an unlisted quantity (but may be still in process of updating his inventory), Ed has none listed (but appears to be in process of inventorying), there are none on ebay.

So, on the market there appear be 11ish. Let's be generous and say Chad, Ed and others bring that up to 30 available.

That does not sound like Fleece are becoming too "common" to me. 30 Fleece. When you look at the the recipes we see right now, that basically means the market has enough fleece for 3 of each transmute to happen.

I recently sold a few and I have 4 more waiting to be transmuted. I am not sure about the rest of you but I get an ungoldly amount of monster bits but I am only transmuting one set of anything.

James J Krot wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Due to the expansion of TD runs in the last few years, Monster Bits (and Golden Fleece) have become much more common.

There are more of them, but there are also more people looking for them.

I really am questioning just how common they've become. As of the time I'm writing this (which likely is relying on some out of date info): Kirk apparently has 6 Fleece for sale, Trent appears to have 0, Mike Steele has 0, Matthew Hayward has 5, Chad has an unlisted quantity (but may be still in process of updating his inventory), Ed has none listed (but appears to be in process of inventorying), there are none on ebay.

So, on the market there appear be 11ish. Let's be generous and say Chad, Ed and others bring that up to 30 available.

That does not sound like Fleece are becoming too "common" to me. 30 Fleece. When you look at the the recipes we see right now, that basically means the market has enough fleece for 3 of each transmute to happen.

I recently sold a few and I have 4 more waiting to be transmuted. I am not sure about the rest of you but I get an ungoldly amount of monster bits but I am only transmuting one set of anything.

Great! There's 4 of the 19 I was being generous with in my 30 count

Picc wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote:
On a personal level, barring the introduction of a permanent psionic class, my TD quest as a player will likely end with the astral plane event in 2021. TD will be too expensive to play at that point, and that event is the one thing that's keeping me excited about playing for the foreseeable future. It isn't the transmuting that makes me feel like I'm on a quest, it's the adventures and storyline and upcoming story arc events that do that. Transmuting is money and time invested, and any increase to the costs of those investments are hits to my wallet and my continued interest in TD. As I said above, I can't be alone in this.

Your not alone, the cost is getting prohibitive. I had some friends stop participating this year because of it. Personally I cut back on runs and will be skipping GHC dispite wanting to go, but such is life. Some people just have more money/lower travel costs then others.

Mike Steele wrote: I am a bit worried about the amount of monster tokens in treasure boxes decreasing. I know we won't be increasing the number of runs we do, in fact we decreased them this year due to the large increase in price.

It's the first concrete example of the dilution in the treasure mix Brad has been predicting for years. Which in a certain sense even make the TEs less fun as they start to feel mandatory just to tread water.

Gents -- I totally get what you are saying here. But actually I think you can still play True Dungeon and enjoy it at a lower cost than you even use too. Being at 4 conventions now provides more opportunity to play than ever before, not that long ago it was a once a year Event for 4 days. And yes the cost at GENCON is very high, well GENCON as a whole is massively expensive. The other conventions are much less expensive to attend and that includes the price of TD. So consider how you might consume TD differently if you are feeling the pinch of the cost.

First ask yourself...Am I enjoying the experience? If that is now a No...move on. If it's Yes there are more options than ever to get your fix. It's okay to stop if the enjoyment is gone. I played Fantasy Baseball in the same league for 25 years and finally gave it up, two things happened 1) I lost the passion for MLB and then 2) I lost the love of Fantasy baseball. People who knew me well were amazed that I stopped, "well you've always played fantasy baseball as long as I've know you". Times change, people change. Life is too short...enjoy your hobbies or give them up.

I'll actually argue we are in 2 different hobbies or games here in True Dungeon land. One is the interactive, immersive, glory that is playing True Dungeon! It's the best game on the planet! But you can enjoy it with just a hand full of tokens. What was your first experience, most people started by playing on normal with a single pack of tokens or maybe a little more. If you are reading this, that experience was so enjoyable you wanted more and bigger and better. That brings me to the second game.

We can call it Token land. Why do you want better tokens? You can enjoy True Dungeon with only a pack of them, you did once. Something in you wants that bigger and better. The token aspect keeps us connected to the TD experience all year long; appeals to our desire to collect, our desire to complete, our desire to improve; our longing for community; our desire to organize and build; our longing to have something fun to fill our endless numbered days. Why do you want better tokens?

I had a hard year. I had to cut way back, I didn't go to GENCON. But I still stayed in the game, made more modest investments in new tokens, divested some tokens, cut back, looked for more clever solutions for my teams builds. Went to Origins and did 3 glorious runs in a day! Had as much fun as ever. I would love to be geared out in Legendaries, Eldritchs, and Relics. But I've come to accept A Relic or 2, some Ultra Rares, and some rares is what I can afford and I'm going to enjoy the heck out of it!

Folks have fun...life is too short!

I was doing really good with fleece until I saw the first pass of recipes. With the revisions, thank you btw, I should be ok. Taking them out of the bead recipe helped a lot. Based on what I pull at GHC, I may end up with 3-4 extra to sell (likely thru Trent Tokens) and still have a few left over to start saving for next year. But keep in mind I do way more runs than the average person. I think the revised recipes look good.

I’m running out of energy. The forums have been draining this year.

Newbies don’t start off making relics and legendaries. It took me five years to make one. Some people have played twice as long as that and have never made one. Yes we’ve added more tickets, but we’ve added more players. There’s going to be a market disruption before the new players build up to where they start worrying about big-ticket transmutes.

And for them to get there, they need to see an enthusiastic player base with faith in the game. These recipes have a very different effect. Some veterans are questioning how they’ll play going forward. Some are questioning whether. Most of them are furious.

What keeps an economy isn’t stability, but faith. A politician says something and the market dives or jumps. The fundamentals didn’t change. People’s faith did.

When I first got on a Segway, it was a disaster. I told the guy who was trying to teach me how that I couldn’t control it as it kept bucking me off. After awhile, I was finally standing still. He smiled and said “you know why? Because you stopped trying to control it.” And he was right. The only way I could ride the evil thing was to think about what I wanted it to do. When I tried to force it, all he’ll broke loose.

In my opinion, deviating from established patterns, especially on works in progress like the Bead and Kilt, coupled with the CoS and LoDS recalls, have shaken a lot of people’s faith. And being such a small community, our economy is more fragile, even though it’s bound together by a love and an obsession for the game.

You can only truly hurt the people who love you. That’s why some people are reacting they way they are this week.

And for all those reasons, I earnestly believe that this year, and maybe next, the market price of Fleece is 100% irrelevant.

My intention is that this is my last post on the subject. But I am passionate about and obsessed with TD. I love TD and Jeff has always been a rockstar in my eyes . He’s living the dream I always wanted. I really want what’s best for him and his family and the game and all of us reading this, and those yet to come.

Arnold wrote:

Eric wrote: re: Arnold, I understand that has been the precedent with previous legendaries, but I'm challenging whether that's something that needs to be stick in stone going forward.

I'm also trying to work backwards from the current legendary recipes. Given the recipe for the rogue legendary, how much would someone need to play True Dungeon every year to get a shot at making one? How much would that person need to spend (buying PYPs, buying trade goods). Finally, looking at that number, is that a number that feels like it sufficiently rewards players just for playing? Or do these feel hopelessly out of reach?

We don't necessarily have to end up agreeing (it's fine if we don't!), but my feeling is that many new players (who don't really participate in this process, btw) would look at what legendaries have cost, historically, and conclude that they'll never be able to make one. And I think that we'd have way more engaged, token-buying players by smoothing out the cost curve.

"It's Jeff's world. We just play in it" - some forum member

You're certainly welcome to contemplate the costs associated with crafting Legendary tokens. It's fun to talk about tokens and what it takes to make them.

I think the details are already in the moniker - Legendary. In D&D, a legendary weapon/artifact is something you might spend the entire quest chasing down. Chances are you don't just happen upon it at level 10. Rather, it's something you spend years and years striving for. So to address your first line of inquiry - I do think legendary tokens should require extraordinary effort to achieve. Should players who play each module once be able to craft one of these top-powered items? I don't think that's how they were designed.

Economics clearly play a big part in this game. If you don't have disposable income to put token orders together, you're unlikely to ever make a legendary token. It would take a nice windfall at the treasure box, like a 25k bar to put you in punter's distance. But here's a rough breakdown of the starting point:

1 Relic - ~$300
1 25k bar - ~$500
1 Wish ring - ~$230
2 PYPs- ~$200
+ tons of trade goods


The numbers above don't probably weren't set up to reward players just for playing. Relic tokens reward players who get the token itch and take the plunge. Then, those Relics become timeless and give you the breathing room you need to save up for a varying period of time. As I mentioned previously, Enhanced and Exalted tokens occupy the space of rewarding players for just playing.

So TL;DR, i think we have a Round-Hole-Square-Peg situation going here. You'd like Legendaries to occupy a space that (imho) they are not meant to.

Yes, this is a big thing that probably doesnt come across well to new and small budget players; unfortunately, if you dont put a lot of money into tokens, the legendaries arent a realistic goal. This isnt meant to take away from those players, it is meant to give the players who do spend lots of money something to strive for. Legendaries need to have that really high cost so they are still special for those at the top. For the low-budget player, they can still strive to obtain good items; many people are constantly pushing for more class specific tokens at low rarities to give players neat abilities. And eventually they will look at an UR or two that really helps their class.

But as to one of the points of the original post this line of convo is from: these specific class relics/legendaries. They are indeed special for the classes, and it really will be disheartening if a player starts in three years, loves rogue, and another two years later wants to go after that relic...oh, except you cant make your class relic anymore. There will likely be new items over the years that have similar cool effects, taking up multiple slots and/or with drawbacks. But we likely wont see an exact reprint of the relic. Maybe after a number of years there will be a new series of class relics. But should those be designed as an alternative to the first round? Meaning a player would only equip one or the other.
An additional bonus? Really good for older players, but leaves newer players still wanting the old relics.
Partial overlap? Diminishing returns for older players, but doesnt negate desire for both.

Or maybe plan to have these be the first relics/legendaries that get put on a cycle (7 years?), just give them an updated recipe after a number of years so players can make them again. Of course, this diminishes the 'colectible' aspect of them, and also makes updating difficult (the game keeps evolving, as do token abilities).

My personal resolution; i am lucky to have the resources to make each of the class relics (assuming fleece doesnt lock me out), so when my kids are old enough to play i am ready for whatever class they choose.

Eric wrote: I'm also trying to work backwards from the current legendary recipes. Given the recipe for the rogue legendary, how much would someone need to play True Dungeon every year to get a shot at making one? How much would that person need to spend (buying PYPs, buying trade goods). Finally, looking at that number, is that a number that feels like it sufficiently rewards players just for playing? Or do these feel hopelessly out of reach?

Remember that Legendary recipes are timeless. That is if you get the core Relic and any UR ingredients (if any) you can always build to the Legendary. I know many people that have waited years to transmute theirs.

It is a goal to aspire to rather then to come in the game and get it the second year. Sure you can if you throw a lot of money at it right away but I would guess the norm is more easing in and eventually acquiring 1, then 2, then 3

Ed

@MasterED (see, couldn’t resist)

Well said. Newbies from the new cons helped contribute to the supply of bits and Fleece, but we can’t expect them to increase the demand right away. And if they look at the history of relics+ they’ll see an ever-escalating cost to the recipes. That doesn’t exactly encourage them to start the journey when they realize the finish line is running away from them.

Maybe now I’m done.

Brad Mortensen wrote:
In my opinion, deviating from established patterns, especially on works in progress like the Bead and Kilt, coupled with the CoS and LoDS recalls, have shaken a lot of people’s faith. And being such a small community, our economy is more fragile, even though it’s bound together by a love and an obsession for the game.

You can only truly hurt the people who love you. That’s why some people are reacting they way they are this week.

I think of a lot of what were seeing this year is an effort to win back the shaken faith of some of the larger players. But thats just a feeling.

David Harris wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:
Please remember I want these Relic/Legendary tokens to be a mini-quest within the game for the player. Except for some rare players, most players won't come "naturally" to all the necessary ingredients. I want them to have to search out, trade, and acquire these items -- and feel a sense of accomplishment when they transmute their new awesome token.

Yes! This is always what attracted me to tokens in all honesty, the thrill of the chase! Thanks Jeff!

Brad Mortensen wrote:
I don’t say this to taunt you. But what this year has taught me is, if you get your hands on a bit, never ever let it go.

Yes, and that is the way it always use to be...only the last couple years have the value of Monster bits and Golden Fleece fallen. I agree with trying to get back to the days where each monster bit was worth roughly $8-9 dollars, and Fleece $75-85 dollars. This was pretty consistent for a long time and I have no problem getting back to that model in 2020+.

By including an extra Fleece in the Eldritch recipe basically equates to an extra $50-60 at this point.

These look good to me Jeff.

You cant say that a goal of the recipes is bring fleece/bits back up to a higher price, and then go on to say that the extra fleece only raises cost by the lower fleece price. It can only do one or the other, not both.

Personally, im with brad on this; i thought i had plenty of monster bits to spare. Until yesterday, i had about 80 bits for sale at $5 each for this year $7 each for last year...now i will not sell any of them. Period. I need every single one of them to mulch into fleece. And that still leaves me not making any legendary BECAUSE OF FLEECE. A bit annoying, but i am fine with the new recipes. Making 4 kilts is eating into my monster bit stash, but that is a one time thing. I would, of course, be happy if the fleece was removed from the kilt, but im not getting upset (like i was last night, sorry).

Data is out there. Take a look at Jedi's treasure pull google docs.


IIRC we are currently trending around 22-23% monster bits.


On the 2017 sheet they were running 18-19%