TOPIC: FINAL Transmute Images

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: Checking token DB, is the HoP 3 extra tokens, or 6 extra tokens? If its 6, I need to edit my edit to say that 10 pulls with the new charm is the max, not 8.

6 as of the Errata:

tokendb.com/token/horn-of-plenty/

And I am fine with you saying 11 is the max (3 from the ticket, 6 from HoP, 1 from CoTB, 1 from Player Level) but you have to include only 1 UR TE can be equipped.


Ed

Thanks for the errata note.

Let me try again on my main point.

Why the arbitrary limit of 1 UR? This leads to varying levels of treasure depending on how OOP your TE is. Cap it at 11 pulls and put everyone on the same playing field - whether it's via 1 token (HoP) or 3 tokens (Ioun Stones).

Because that's what Jeff decided it should be. Isn't that enough of an answer?

To be fair, we’ve been arguing pros and cons about “what Jeff decided it should be” on other tokens for a week.

And, for every decision Jeff made, there are people that aren't happy with it, just like in this case. It seems the player base is varied enough and opinions & needs are varied enough that there are rarely True Dungeon decisions that satisfy everyone.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I'm happy with all of this. Let's make sure the TokenDB pages get updated for Viper Strike Set and Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace to be clear how they interact (sounds like with both a slide of 17-20 counts as a critical which doubles the sneak attack bonus damage). How does it interact with Assassin's Crossbow? Is the bonus damage tripled on a slide of 17+?

Regarding the Kilt, I notice that many of those who are unhappy with the token's abilities mention it will (or would be) their first Eldritch token. I believe that they may be overlooking the future value of the +1 Level they'll get if they (presumably) also craft the Eldritch Teeth. I of course encourage people who like one of the UR kilts better to stick with the UR version, but ultimately I think you'll wish you had transmuted when you end up with 2 or more Eldritch pieces.

Remember the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command wasn't all that great on its own either, and for some that was their first Eldritch item.

Personally, I've always thought the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command is great. We'd be outfitting it even if it weren't Eldritch.

Personally, I think a one-TE limit will discourage buying URTEs in the out years, because the fact you have to lose it means the next Nugget is twice as expensive per TC. Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

A loot cap also discourages buying more TEs when you hit the cap, but it pushes the hurdle further out.

And yeah, you can sell it. But history has shown than almost no transmute ever holds its value for even a week. Most relics sell for half the cost of the ingredients to make them. So let’s not pretend these people are not going to take a loss. It seems to me it would be better to postpone that harsh realization a few years, when their TC drawing has reached a level higher than six. Spending (say) $50 on a token, then being forced to sell it for $20 towards your next Nugget is going to suck.

But I won’t be using it

Mike Steele wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I'm happy with all of this. Let's make sure the TokenDB pages get updated for Viper Strike Set and Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace to be clear how they interact (sounds like with both a slide of 17-20 counts as a critical which doubles the sneak attack bonus damage). How does it interact with Assassin's Crossbow? Is the bonus damage tripled on a slide of 17+?

Regarding the Kilt, I notice that many of those who are unhappy with the token's abilities mention it will (or would be) their first Eldritch token. I believe that they may be overlooking the future value of the +1 Level they'll get if they (presumably) also craft the Eldritch Teeth. I of course encourage people who like one of the UR kilts better to stick with the UR version, but ultimately I think you'll wish you had transmuted when you end up with 2 or more Eldritch pieces.

Remember the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command wasn't all that great on its own either, and for some that was their first Eldritch item.

Personally, I've always thought the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command is great. We'd be outfitting it even if it weren't Eldritch.

+1. Due to various missteps and misfortunes, then SRoEC is the only Eldritch I have. And I always equip it with every build.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Personally, I think a one-TE limit will discourage buying URTEs in the out years, because the fact you have to lose it means the next Nugget is twice as expensive per TC. Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

A loot cap also discourages buying more TEs when you hit the cap, but it pushes the hurdle further out.

And yeah, you can sell it. But history has shown than almost no transmute ever holds its value for even a week. Most relics sell for half the cost of the ingredients to make them. So let’s not pretend these people are not going to take a loss. It seems to me it would be better to postpone that harsh realization a few years, when their TC drawing has reached a level higher than six. Spending (say) $50 on a token, then being forced to sell it for $20 towards your next Nugget is going to suck.

But I won’t be using it

Brad, it's funny, but that's the kind of argument I was making all along against a token like this. This isn't as bad as the +2 version from earlier, but I do agree with you that no matter where the line is drawn where this transmute is no longer effective, it could inhibit sales. When someone looks at buying that next UR TE Ioun Stone, and it is only going to give them +1 instead of +2 from where they currently are, there may be a percentage of players that decide not to get that next Ioun Stone, that would have gotten it without this transmute. Which could be lost True Dungeon sales.

Endgame wrote:
Like I said earlier, by boosting a single token, you're saying its OK for it to give a 10th treasure chip to someone who has an OOP token. This doesn't encourage selling more Ioun stones, but instead encourages upgrading to older tokens, especially if the transmute cost is high.

If it enhances only 1 token, you're optimal TE path is:
get Rare TE, craft Treasure booster
Sell / Give away rare TE, buy Ioun Stone
Sell Ioun Stone, buy AoTF
Sell AoTF, buy HoP (this step is probably unrealistic, given the cost of HoP)

If you're OK with the treasure booster granting a 10th treasure chip, you should be OK with it regardless of source. If the HoP can get a 10th chip from the treasure booster, then so should a combination of Silver, Gold, and Platinum Ioun Stones.

I see the Charm as filling a niche for a class of players that choose not to invest hundreds of dollars. Rather than a "bridge", I think it's a cool transmute for the crowd that's been asking for more neat transmutes.

https://truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=248225&start=24#318549

Why the feel-bads about someone getting to 10 via a HoP? This charm clearly isn't intended to get people to 10. It's intended to get people x + 1.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

We're already there through without this charm. I have Lenses of Fortune, do I want to spend $100 on a +1 URTE?

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

We're already there through without this charm. I have Lenses of Fortune, do I want to spend $100 on a +1 URTE?

Good point.

Mike Steele wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

We're already there through without this charm. I have Lenses of Fortune, do I want to spend $100 on a +1 URTE?

Good point.

Absolutely. We can’t eliminate the hurdle without raising the max cap. The best we can do is push it out a TE or two.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

We're already there through without this charm. I have Lenses of Fortune, do I want to spend $100 on a +1 URTE?

Good point.

Absolutely. We can’t eliminate the hurdle without raising the max cap. The best we can do is push it out a TE or two.

I'm still totally cool with the limit of no more than one token on it, but I respect your differing opinion.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Buying the Nugget gets you a net +1 TC instead of +2. Would you spend $100 on a +1 URTE? That’s a hurdle to jump before you start getting full utility from the next one.

We're already there through without this charm. I have Lenses of Fortune, do I want to spend $100 on a +1 URTE?

Good point.

Absolutely. We can’t eliminate the hurdle without raising the max cap. The best we can do is push it out a TE or two.

I'm still totally cool with the limit of no more than one token on it, but I respect your differing opinion.

So you’re in favor of MetaphoricDragon facing two such hurdles. Okay. Just so we’re all clear.

Another reason the TB needs to be cheap.

That’s all I have to say about it

You could change the wording to +1 Treasure pull for bathing and wearing deodorant ;P

I love that there is so much passion about a game!