TOPIC: FINAL Transmute Images

Endgame wrote: Checking token DB, is the HoP 3 extra tokens, or 6 extra tokens? If its 6, I need to edit my edit to say that 10 pulls with the new charm is the max, not 8.

6 making the max 11.

3 from base pulls
6 from HoP
1 from new charm
1 from 6th player level

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: Checking token DB, is the HoP 3 extra tokens, or 6 extra tokens? If its 6, I need to edit my edit to say that 10 pulls with the new charm is the max, not 8.

6 as of the Errata:

tokendb.com/token/horn-of-plenty/

And I am fine with you saying 11 is the max (3 from the ticket, 6 from HoP, 1 from CoTB, 1 from Player Level) but you have to include only 1 UR TE can be equipped.


Ed

Thanks for the errata note.

Let me try again on my main point.

Why the arbitrary limit of 1 UR? This leads to varying levels of treasure depending on how OOP your TE is. Cap it at 11 pulls and put everyone on the same playing field - whether it's via 1 token (HoP) or 3 tokens (Ioun Stones).

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: Checking token DB, is the HoP 3 extra tokens, or 6 extra tokens? If its 6, I need to edit my edit to say that 10 pulls with the new charm is the max, not 8.

6 as of the Errata:

tokendb.com/token/horn-of-plenty/

And I am fine with you saying 11 is the max (3 from the ticket, 6 from HoP, 1 from CoTB, 1 from Player Level) but you have to include only 1 UR TE can be equipped.


Ed

Thanks for the errata note.

Let me try again on my main point.

Why the arbitrary limit of 1 UR? This leads to varying levels of treasure depending on how OOP your TE is. Cap it at 11 pulls and put everyone on the same playing field - whether it's via 1 token (HoP) or 3 tokens (Ioun Stones).

Because that's what Jeff decided it should be. Isn't that enough of an answer?

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: Checking token DB, is the HoP 3 extra tokens, or 6 extra tokens? If its 6, I need to edit my edit to say that 10 pulls with the new charm is the max, not 8.

6 as of the Errata:

tokendb.com/token/horn-of-plenty/

And I am fine with you saying 11 is the max (3 from the ticket, 6 from HoP, 1 from CoTB, 1 from Player Level) but you have to include only 1 UR TE can be equipped.


Ed

Thanks for the errata note.

Let me try again on my main point.

Why the arbitrary limit of 1 UR? This leads to varying levels of treasure depending on how OOP your TE is. Cap it at 11 pulls and put everyone on the same playing field - whether it's via 1 token (HoP) or 3 tokens (Ioun Stones).

Because that's what Jeff decided it should be. Isn't that enough of an answer?

To be fair, we’ve been arguing pros and cons about “what Jeff decided it should be” on other tokens for a week.

Endgame wrote: Why the arbitrary limit of 1 UR? This leads to varying levels of treasure depending on how OOP your TE is. Cap it at 11 pulls and put everyone on the same playing field - whether it's via 1 token (HoP) or 3 tokens (Ioun Stones).

I think I got it, I just don't agree with it.

It turns the Charm of Treasure Boosting from a new player small boost and incentive to buy more UR TE into a Charm that is as powerful as a HoP. Just from a power perspective it would then need to be a lot more expensive which invalidates its original purpose.

Ed

What it should do is only half the equation.

How much it costs is another.

So, any power it ends up with is fine, so long as the cost is appropriate.

My preference would cost more than what’s written now. This one should be much cheaper because it has a much smaller audience and limited life span.

So we’ll see.

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: Why the arbitrary limit of 1 UR? This leads to varying levels of treasure depending on how OOP your TE is. Cap it at 11 pulls and put everyone on the same playing field - whether it's via 1 token (HoP) or 3 tokens (Ioun Stones).

I think I got it, I just don't agree with it.

It turns the Charm of Treasure Boosting from a new player small boost and incentive to buy more UR TE into a Charm that is as powerful as a HoP. Just from a power perspective it would then need to be a lot more expensive which invalidates its original purpose.

Ed

But I don’t agree with this. Regardless of the cap or limitation, it only ever provides +1. It’ll never be even half as powerful as a Nugget, because of its drawback. It will NEVER equal a HoP. It just lets a HoP owner draw 10 instead of 9, i.e. half a Nugget.

Or if it had a cap of 10, it would have let a three-Nugget owner draw 10 instead of 9; again, half a Nugget.

Either way, so long as the cost is well under half a PYP, I think it’s okay.

I'm happy with all of this. Let's make sure the TokenDB pages get updated for Viper Strike Set and Nightshade's Sneaky Necklace to be clear how they interact (sounds like with both a slide of 17-20 counts as a critical which doubles the sneak attack bonus damage). How does it interact with Assassin's Crossbow? Is the bonus damage tripled on a slide of 17+?

Regarding the Kilt, I notice that many of those who are unhappy with the token's abilities mention it will (or would be) their first Eldritch token. I believe that they may be overlooking the future value of the +1 Level they'll get if they (presumably) also craft the Eldritch Teeth. I of course encourage people who like one of the UR kilts better to stick with the UR version, but ultimately I think you'll wish you had transmuted when you end up with 2 or more Eldritch pieces.

Remember the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command wasn't all that great on its own either, and for some that was their first Eldritch item.

Why is everyone discussing treasure caps for players with the new enhancer. It has nothing to do with the enhancer and more to do with whether the player happens to have a Ur token that gives them more pulls or not. I'm just not seeing the difficulty in saying you can equip one Ur or lower treasure token and this gives you one more chip too.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Endgame wrote: Perfectly OK to stack this charm If you have a HoP (worth at least 5 Ioun stones), but stacking with 2 ioun stones is totally not OK? Odd logic.

Virtually no one is going to use the Charm of Treasure Boosting with a HoP. If you own a HoP odds are you already own other TE tokens.

Look at the purpose of the Charm of Treasure Boosting. It allows a newer player without UR TE to pick up a Rare TE, use it for +1 treasure (inexpensive Rare). Then transmute a Charm of Treasure Boosting for +2 treasure (more expensive but less than the cost of an UR).

Then they want to take the plunge for a UR Ioun Stone. They get rid of their Rare and now have the Charm and Ioun Stone for +3 Treasure Chips (all beyond the normal ticket).

They really love TD and now want to buy a second UR TE token, now is when they retire the Charm of Treasure Boosting after their purchase and they are 4+ TE.

How you implement it I am agnostic to, as long as that player path is kept I am good.

Ed

Actually, HOP is the only TE my friend owns. He doesn't buy any URs, but got a Mithral Coin of Fate during the one year of exceptional treasure and got his HOP that way. He's had good luck with treasure pulls getting an icecrag's and keen slayer bow out of the box as well.

Can I get your friend to pull for me?

I want him to pull for me, but it rarely works out.

jedibcg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: True. The point I was making is that even if someone gets their first TE UR, and will be getting a second TE UR sometime in the future, this transmute works well for them until they get that second TE UR. Which could be a couple of years, if they get their Golden Nugget as their first this year.

Ahhh yes. We agree. And then they can probably sell the TB to someone else because it will be OOP then. Might make a reason for me to make some after all....lol.

Sure, total agreement! I actually think this transmute will always be in demand - every year you'll probably have a number of people getting their first Rare or UR TE. It's cool thinking of them changing hands to new people every couple of years.

Adam Guay wrote: Why is everyone discussing treasure caps for players with the new enhancer. It has nothing to do with the enhancer and more to do with whether the player happens to have a Ur token that gives them more pulls or not. I'm just not seeing the difficulty in saying you can equip one Ur or lower treasure token and this gives you one more chip too.

Like I said earlier, by boosting a single token, you're saying its OK for it to give a 10th treasure chip to someone who has an OOP token. This doesn't encourage selling more Ioun stones, but instead encourages upgrading to older tokens, especially if the transmute cost is high.

If it enhances only 1 token, you're optimal TE path is:
get Rare TE, craft Treasure booster
Sell / Give away rare TE, buy Ioun Stone
Sell Ioun Stone, buy AoTF
Sell AoTF, buy HoP (this step is probably unrealistic, given the cost of HoP)

If you're OK with the treasure booster granting a 10th treasure chip, you should be OK with it regardless of source. If the HoP can get a 10th chip from the treasure booster, then so should a combination of Silver, Gold, and Platinum Ioun Stones.