TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images !!

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cranston wrote: I tried to stay away from any comments relative to trying to incorporate tokens into apps, but the latest change for the Charm of Treasure Finding just needs to be talked about. 3 new Treasure Enhancing tokens this year. Some play with others, while some do not. Now this one works with some others while not playing with some others.

Ok, as far as I can figure it, the Charm of Treasure Finding works with any of the UR Ioun Stones (Nugget collection) It does not work with any of the Rare Treasure Enhancers, as they do not work with anything else. The Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with CoA, but will work with any of the tokens that make up CoA, so Amulet of Treasure Finding or Ring of Riches, or Horn of Plenty or Charm of Good Fortune, but not all at the same time.

Note that it is not that the Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with Cloak of Many Pockets, but the Cloak of Many Pockets does not work with the Charm of Treasure Finding. (relates to Lenses of Focus and Crown of Treasure Finding also)

Also consider the bonus for a 6th level player, commonly defined as the Badge of Nobility, or Medallion of Nobility. I believe that these do not count relative to the Cloak of Many Pockets, and similar Rares, but do they count as the "one" Treasure Enhancer?

I really prefer this as it was originally, with 'Not Useable with any other Treasure Enhancing Tokens'

It is actually intended to be used with the +1 Rare TE tokens, as well as all UR TE Tokens. Some sort of errata will have to be added to the +1 Rare TE Tokens to allow this. Or, the Rare TE Token from this year could have the wording altered specifically allowing stacking only with Charm of Treasure Finding, and it would stack with this year's Rare and not past year rares.

Probably best phrased like :

Increase the treasure of a token by 1. Cannot be used with coa.

This phrasing does not conflict with the rare TEs, I think

does not work. that would aallow you to use it with 2 IS Nuggets. or worse all TE UR’s.

How are high level players getting Free Movement?

I wish folks weren't lobbying to strip it from from the bead.

If you think it's not thematic, I'll just point to the Defender Set. Heavy Armor with free movement, go figure.

Then again, what's thematic about a bead giving you saves?

Xavon wrote: What if we slap a +1 to hit (all types) on the Kilt? The +4 HP is like partial +2 to CON, a universal +1 to hit would be like a partial +2 to both STR and DEX.

When no-one responds, I have to wonder if it got lost in the shuffle, or was just a 'meh' suggestion. So maybe if I spell it out...

Suggestion:
+5 HP, +1 to hit (melee, ranged, spells), and choose one:
+4 to STR, +4 to DEX, or +4 to CON

---

What if the EK was:
+2 to STR, DEX, and CON
Choose 1:
+2 to STR, +2 to DEX, or +2 to CON

---

Also, I would be satisfied with:
+5 to HP, and +4 to any 1 Attribute (STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA)

Xavon wrote:

Xavon wrote: What if we slap a +1 to hit (all types) on the Kilt? The +4 HP is like partial +2 to CON, a universal +1 to hit would be like a partial +2 to both STR and DEX.

When no-one responds, I have to wonder if it got lost in the shuffle, or was just a 'meh' suggestion. So maybe if I spell it out...

Suggestion:
+5 HP, +1 to hit (melee, ranged, spells), and choose one:
+4 to STR, +4 to DEX, or +4 to CON

---

What if the EK was:
+2 to STR, DEX, and CON
Choose 1:
+2 to STR, +2 to DEX, or +2 to CON

---

Also, I would be satisfied with:
+5 to HP, and +4 to any 1 Attribute (STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA)

I really like the last option.....

Side note you might get the +4 cha from not wearing pants or a kilt!

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: I would still prefer the bead to be +3. Given that we have +2 save ioun stones at UR, +3 seems right for a four year relic transmute.

For those that want the Bead back to +3 I ask you this: If it stays +2 will you still transmute it? If your answer is yes then it's fine where it's at. I could be wrong but I'd bet some cash that 100% of people advocating for the +3 will still get it at +2.

I'd Transmute it if it were only +1. That doesn't make it a good idea though.

I might even Transmute it if were only freedom of movement. Doesn't make that a good idea either.

Why would you transmute it if it were only +1? Or just freedom of movement? Just to have one? Would you make multiples?

I wasn't clear. +1 and Free Movement. Since I outfit my Sons group who play at Hardcore, they would have value. Still not a good idea for a 4 year Transmute.

I'd make one or two if they were just Free Miovement, just to have them. Even less of a good idea.


My point is, some would be made even under those clearly absurd circumstances.


I'll certainly make multiples of +2 and Freedom of Movement. Not as many though. The number of Fleeces needed will play for transmutes will play a role as well.

How many Kilts will you make if the transmute stands as is and how many left over sets of Kilt UR's will you have that you don't transmute?

Since the Kilt option chosen was the one I preferred, that won't alter my decision.

The pain point is that making two will hit the Wizard build one of my son's friends uses. But here I'm going to be selfish and make two. None left over, though I might try to acquire a third Tavernbane. Or just not use the eldritch Kilt on my build when I run with them.

Well think about this with the Kilt's: The first two UR Kilt's netted a +2 total stat increase. barrelbane nets a +0. The transmute Kilt gives a +4 to ANY stat of choice and 5hp. Great jump in my book. I think most people not feeling love for the transmute Kilt are at the high end. The negatives don't affect their builds so they don't care and are just looking for a bigger bump. But what about the Rare to UR or low end UR players? I'm guessing those negatives are much more impactful to their builds.

EDIT: And I even wind up being guilty of forgetting. Kilt is also part of the Eldritch set which is also a baked in bonus.

I already said this version was my preferred option. I was anticipating that Barrelbane would net at +2 as well, but I can see why that would have been too good.

I think you are right about low end players. As a Coach I have counseled several newbies against tokens with negative CON. When I told them the HP loss they would take at a 4th level character, they blanched.

Starkhound (Edwin) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote: I'd rather have the +5 Kilt back.

Which Exalted does the Rare Bead transmute into, is it the Lucky Traveler?

I'd rather have the +5 Kilt back as well, it seems to be going backwards to me.

Agreed. I'd rather take +1 on the modifier than +5 to HP.

The problem is +5 was to powerful +4 with hp is the most sane compromise.

Arnold wrote: How are high level players getting Free Movement?

I wish folks weren't lobbying to strip it from from the bead.

If you think it's not thematic, I'll just point to the Defender Set. Heavy Armor with free movement, go figure.

Then again, what's thematic about a bead giving you saves?

The problem with the bead getting free movement is that if everyone has free movement then it’s basically pointless to put anything in the modules were free movement applies. There are going to be a ton of beads I think in the market and every high level players is going to probably have beads to spare. I’m just concerned about design space going forward. And yes I have some high level tokens, but I’m still using a defender set and boots of the Marauder. So I’m not BIS on most tokens.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Kilt: compare to all other Eldritch art, this is the only one that’s not rainbow.

That would potentially look really great!

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Arnold wrote: How are high level players getting Free Movement?

I wish folks weren't lobbying to strip it from from the bead.

If you think it's not thematic, I'll just point to the Defender Set. Heavy Armor with free movement, go figure.

Then again, what's thematic about a bead giving you saves?

The problem with the bead getting free movement is that if everyone has free movement then it’s basically pointless to put anything in the modules were free movement applies. There are going to be a ton of beads I think in the market and every high level players is going to probably have beads to spare. I’m just concerned about design space going forward. And yes I have some high level tokens, but I’m still using a defender set and boots of the Marauder. So I’m not BIS on most tokens.

Maybe the problem is with Free Movement as a concept existing at all. As a coach I see a lot of it on builds. I have to think its already impacting dungeon design.

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: I would still prefer the bead to be +3. Given that we have +2 save ioun stones at UR, +3 seems right for a four year relic transmute.

For those that want the Bead back to +3 I ask you this: If it stays +2 will you still transmute it? If your answer is yes then it's fine where it's at. I could be wrong but I'd bet some cash that 100% of people advocating for the +3 will still get it at +2.

I'd Transmute it if it were only +1. That doesn't make it a good idea though.

I might even Transmute it if were only freedom of movement. Doesn't make that a good idea either.

Why would you transmute it if it were only +1? Or just freedom of movement? Just to have one? Would you make multiples?

I wasn't clear. +1 and Free Movement. Since I outfit my Sons group who play at Hardcore, they would have value. Still not a good idea for a 4 year Transmute.

I'd make one or two if they were just Free Miovement, just to have them. Even less of a good idea.


My point is, some would be made even under those clearly absurd circumstances.


I'll certainly make multiples of +2 and Freedom of Movement. Not as many though. The number of Fleeces needed will play for transmutes will play a role as well.

How many Kilts will you make if the transmute stands as is and how many left over sets of Kilt UR's will you have that you don't transmute?

Since the Kilt option chosen was the one I preferred, that won't alter my decision.

The pain point is that making two will hit the Wizard build one of my son's friends uses. But here I'm going to be selfish and make two. None left over, though I might try to acquire a third Tavernbane. Or just not use the eldritch Kilt on my build when I run with them.

Well think about this with the Kilt's: The first two UR Kilt's netted a +2 total stat increase. barrelbane nets a +0. The transmute Kilt gives a +4 to ANY stat of choice and 5hp. Great jump in my book. I think most people not feeling love for the transmute Kilt are at the high end. The negatives don't affect their builds so they don't care and are just looking for a bigger bump. But what about the Rare to UR or low end UR players? I'm guessing those negatives are much more impactful to their builds.

EDIT: And I even wind up being guilty of forgetting. Kilt is also part of the Eldritch set which is also a baked in bonus.

You’re not listening.

My problem is that I: (1) made Thor’s and (2) play a Cleric who needs +9 DEX to wield the damn thing. Everything you say is true. None of it addresses my problem.

I’m not saying it has to change. But please stop telling me I’m an idiot for not seeing how awesome losing 2 DEX is for my build. I’m telling you, for like the fifth time: IT. iS. NOT.

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cranston wrote: I tried to stay away from any comments relative to trying to incorporate tokens into apps, but the latest change for the Charm of Treasure Finding just needs to be talked about. 3 new Treasure Enhancing tokens this year. Some play with others, while some do not. Now this one works with some others while not playing with some others.

Ok, as far as I can figure it, the Charm of Treasure Finding works with any of the UR Ioun Stones (Nugget collection) It does not work with any of the Rare Treasure Enhancers, as they do not work with anything else. The Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with CoA, but will work with any of the tokens that make up CoA, so Amulet of Treasure Finding or Ring of Riches, or Horn of Plenty or Charm of Good Fortune, but not all at the same time.

Note that it is not that the Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with Cloak of Many Pockets, but the Cloak of Many Pockets does not work with the Charm of Treasure Finding. (relates to Lenses of Focus and Crown of Treasure Finding also)

Also consider the bonus for a 6th level player, commonly defined as the Badge of Nobility, or Medallion of Nobility. I believe that these do not count relative to the Cloak of Many Pockets, and similar Rares, but do they count as the "one" Treasure Enhancer?

I really prefer this as it was originally, with 'Not Useable with any other Treasure Enhancing Tokens'

It is actually intended to be used with the +1 Rare TE tokens, as well as all UR TE Tokens. Some sort of errata will have to be added to the +1 Rare TE Tokens to allow this. Or, the Rare TE Token from this year could have the wording altered specifically allowing stacking only with Charm of Treasure Finding, and it would stack with this year's Rare and not past year rares.

Probably best phrased like :

Increase the treasure of a token by 1. Cannot be used with coa.

This phrasing does not conflict with the rare TEs, I think

does not work. that would aallow you to use it with 2 IS Nuggets. or worse all TE UR’s.

Hmm, interesting point. However, would that be a problem? It still wouldn't raise the treasure cap since it doesn't stack with the coa, and it wouldnt ever discourage buying a new purple te.

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I like the Kilt, I'm glad this is where we landed (with the exception of some sympathy for Clerics like Brad whose cheese keeps getting moved).


I'd prefer +3 on the Bead, but will transmute similar numbers either way. I just feel +2 is likely to get knocked out of that slot sooner rather than later (unless there are bead slot expanders coming down the line).

Bead art still A+

That would be my concern about transmuting multiples at just +2 Saves as well, that it will be made obsolete pretty quickly.

Why do you think it will be obsolete pretty quickly? Not sure I get this unless Jeff posted elsewhere what his plans are for the slot. At +2 it very well could be a BIS Bead for many years.

Bead is already established to have offensive capability with the 2018 ignore 50/50% miss chance on incorporeal, and see invisible creatures.

As soon as a decent to-hit or to-damage melee bead is printed think the +2 saves bead goes out of a lot of builds and stops being a desirable token to pick up in ones that don't have it already.

If anything like this is printed:
+1 or more focus
+1 or more to melee hit and damage or +2 or more to STR
+2 or more to melee damage
It's likely to get knocked out.

Even situational effects like bypass crit immunity, gain Turn Undead targets, +2 damage with Wands, might boot it.