TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images !!

David Harris wrote: Thoughts on the Bead -

Most of the debate has been on +2 or +3, in my mind either is fine. Free Movement is also very huge. Power level seems right for 4 year, 5 star transmute either way in my opinion.

My concern is not what it does but where it does it. The bead slot is a new slot right now we only have 3 option for that slot and depending on what you think you might face any of the 3 could be used, more likely Rare or Uncommon...now you introduce this token and it is clearly best in slot by a wide margin. It essentially boasts all Nightmare and most Hardcore groups saves up by +2 (+3) across the board and becomes the obvious and most logical choice for Free movement...thus invalidating the following potential choices all NM and HC groups have had to decide on:

Amulet of the Wind
Boots of Free Action
Boots of Marauder
Defender Set
Earcuff of Freedom
Pantaloons of the Underdark (and Deeperdark)

Seems like making this a bead, so early in the bead slots existence, really limits the bead slot development going forward and increases the overall power level of all builds. I think this really should be a Hand , finger, head or maybe even Ioun stone.

I wasn't happy seeing a Relic in the Bead slot so soon either. And although Jeff could open up another Bead slot I hope he doesn't.

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks for the correction. Maybe there will be a Rare included in the recipe this year as well.

Mike - check out the rare bead of fire resistance.

Rob F wrote:

Dave wrote: For me the bead debate just comes down to how soon before it will be obsolete. Sure, I'll want one for now, but at +2 Saves it might not be long before a better alternative comes along. At +3 it becomes a viable alternative for many years and if we get a means to wear more than one bead, then it might be considered equal to Icecrag's in terms of longevity.

I like the current version of the kilt, just not sure I love it. So maybe that means its reached a fair compromise. I do think the strength on barrelbane should be lowered, but whatever.

Why do you think at +3 it becomes a viable alternate for many years vs. at +2? Not sure I get this unless Jeff posted elsewhere what his plans are for the slot. At +2 it very well could be a BIS Bead for many years.

Why is there no love for Free Movement? There aren't that many ways to get it, right now. I can see why folks who rock the defender set might not care, but just lose a round or two in combat and i'm sure you'll appreciate the power of the bead. I'm actually really happy to open up options and free myself from Boots of the Marauder.

No love for free movement on my end because, well, it's just a bead. It's a bead people. Not a pair of boots or pants, just a little ol tiny bead. Which is why I presume the Relic level is just +2 to Saves. To me that's a monstrous power for a little bead. Plus like I mentioned before at just +2 people are still going to make them.

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: I would still prefer the bead to be +3. Given that we have +2 save ioun stones at UR, +3 seems right for a four year relic transmute.

For those that want the Bead back to +3 I ask you this: If it stays +2 will you still transmute it? If your answer is yes then it's fine where it's at. I could be wrong but I'd bet some cash that 100% of people advocating for the +3 will still get it at +2.

I'd Transmute it if it were only +1. That doesn't make it a good idea though.

I might even Transmute it if were only freedom of movement. Doesn't make that a good idea either.

Why would you transmute it if it were only +1? Or just freedom of movement? Just to have one? Would you make multiples?

I wasn't clear. +1 and Free Movement. Since I outfit my Sons group who play at Hardcore, they would have value. Still not a good idea for a 4 year Transmute.

I'd make one or two if they were just Free Miovement, just to have them. Even less of a good idea.


My point is, some would be made even under those clearly absurd circumstances.


I'll certainly make multiples of +2 and Freedom of Movement. Not as many though. The number of Fleeces needed will play for transmutes will play a role as well.

How many Kilts will you make if the transmute stands as is and how many left over sets of Kilt UR's will you have that you don't transmute?

Since the Kilt option chosen was the one I preferred, that won't alter my decision.

The pain point is that making two will hit the Wizard build one of my son's friends uses. But here I'm going to be selfish and make two. None left over, though I might try to acquire a third Tavernbane. Or just not use the eldritch Kilt on my build when I run with them.

Arnold wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks for the correction. Maybe there will be a Rare included in the recipe this year as well.

Mike - check out the rare bead of fire resistance.

Rob F wrote:

Dave wrote: For me the bead debate just comes down to how soon before it will be obsolete. Sure, I'll want one for now, but at +2 Saves it might not be long before a better alternative comes along. At +3 it becomes a viable alternative for many years and if we get a means to wear more than one bead, then it might be considered equal to Icecrag's in terms of longevity.

I like the current version of the kilt, just not sure I love it. So maybe that means its reached a fair compromise. I do think the strength on barrelbane should be lowered, but whatever.

Why do you think at +3 it becomes a viable alternate for many years vs. at +2? Not sure I get this unless Jeff posted elsewhere what his plans are for the slot. At +2 it very well could be a BIS Bead for many years.

Why is there no love for Free Movement? There aren't that many ways to get it, right now. I can see why folks who rock the defender set might not care, but just lose a round or two in combat and i'm sure you'll appreciate the power of the bead. I'm actually really happy to open up options and free myself from Boots of the Marauder.

Good catch, Arnold, that transmute line was recently added to it.

I tried to stay away from any comments relative to trying to incorporate tokens into apps, but the latest change for the Charm of Treasure Finding just needs to be talked about. 3 new Treasure Enhancing tokens this year. Some play with others, while some do not. Now this one works with some others while not playing with some others.

Ok, as far as I can figure it, the Charm of Treasure Finding works with any of the UR Ioun Stones (Nugget collection) It does not work with any of the Rare Treasure Enhancers, as they do not work with anything else. The Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with CoA, but will work with any of the tokens that make up CoA, so Amulet of Treasure Finding or Ring of Riches, or Horn of Plenty or Charm of Good Fortune, but not all at the same time.

Note that it is not that the Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with Cloak of Many Pockets, but the Cloak of Many Pockets does not work with the Charm of Treasure Finding. (relates to Lenses of Focus and Crown of Treasure Finding also)

Also consider the bonus for a 6th level player, commonly defined as the Badge of Nobility, or Medallion of Nobility. I believe that these do not count relative to the Cloak of Many Pockets, and similar Rares, but do they count as the "one" Treasure Enhancer?

I really prefer this as it was originally, with 'Not Useable with any other Treasure Enhancing Tokens'

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: I would still prefer the bead to be +3. Given that we have +2 save ioun stones at UR, +3 seems right for a four year relic transmute.

For those that want the Bead back to +3 I ask you this: If it stays +2 will you still transmute it? If your answer is yes then it's fine where it's at. I could be wrong but I'd bet some cash that 100% of people advocating for the +3 will still get it at +2.

I'd Transmute it if it were only +1. That doesn't make it a good idea though.

I might even Transmute it if were only freedom of movement. Doesn't make that a good idea either.

Why would you transmute it if it were only +1? Or just freedom of movement? Just to have one? Would you make multiples?

I wasn't clear. +1 and Free Movement. Since I outfit my Sons group who play at Hardcore, they would have value. Still not a good idea for a 4 year Transmute.

I'd make one or two if they were just Free Miovement, just to have them. Even less of a good idea.


My point is, some would be made even under those clearly absurd circumstances.


I'll certainly make multiples of +2 and Freedom of Movement. Not as many though. The number of Fleeces needed will play for transmutes will play a role as well.

How many Kilts will you make if the transmute stands as is and how many left over sets of Kilt UR's will you have that you don't transmute?

Was going to make two or three. I’ll make one because it will be good for Shelly. No, you can’t have my leftovers.

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: I would still prefer the bead to be +3. Given that we have +2 save ioun stones at UR, +3 seems right for a four year relic transmute.

For those that want the Bead back to +3 I ask you this: If it stays +2 will you still transmute it? If your answer is yes then it's fine where it's at. I could be wrong but I'd bet some cash that 100% of people advocating for the +3 will still get it at +2.

I'd Transmute it if it were only +1. That doesn't make it a good idea though.

I might even Transmute it if were only freedom of movement. Doesn't make that a good idea either.

Why would you transmute it if it were only +1? Or just freedom of movement? Just to have one? Would you make multiples?

I wasn't clear. +1 and Free Movement. Since I outfit my Sons group who play at Hardcore, they would have value. Still not a good idea for a 4 year Transmute.

I'd make one or two if they were just Free Miovement, just to have them. Even less of a good idea.


My point is, some would be made even under those clearly absurd circumstances.


I'll certainly make multiples of +2 and Freedom of Movement. Not as many though. The number of Fleeces needed will play for transmutes will play a role as well.

How many Kilts will you make if the transmute stands as is and how many left over sets of Kilt UR's will you have that you don't transmute?

Since the Kilt option chosen was the one I preferred, that won't alter my decision.

The pain point is that making two will hit the Wizard build one of my son's friends uses. But here I'm going to be selfish and make two. None left over, though I might try to acquire a third Tavernbane. Or just not use the eldritch Kilt on my build when I run with them.

Well think about this with the Kilt's: The first two UR Kilt's netted a +2 total stat increase. barrelbane nets a +0. The transmute Kilt gives a +4 to ANY stat of choice and 5hp. Great jump in my book. I think most people not feeling love for the transmute Kilt are at the high end. The negatives don't affect their builds so they don't care and are just looking for a bigger bump. But what about the Rare to UR or low end UR players? I'm guessing those negatives are much more impactful to their builds.

EDIT: And I even wind up being guilty of forgetting. Kilt is also part of the Eldritch set which is also a baked in bonus.

I would personally prefer a straight +3 saves on the beads or +3 and something other than free movement

Maybe add free movement to the kilt instead

Cranston wrote: I tried to stay away from any comments relative to trying to incorporate tokens into apps, but the latest change for the Charm of Treasure Finding just needs to be talked about. 3 new Treasure Enhancing tokens this year. Some play with others, while some do not. Now this one works with some others while not playing with some others.

Ok, as far as I can figure it, the Charm of Treasure Finding works with any of the UR Ioun Stones (Nugget collection) It does not work with any of the Rare Treasure Enhancers, as they do not work with anything else. The Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with CoA, but will work with any of the tokens that make up CoA, so Amulet of Treasure Finding or Ring of Riches, or Horn of Plenty or Charm of Good Fortune, but not all at the same time.

Note that it is not that the Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with Cloak of Many Pockets, but the Cloak of Many Pockets does not work with the Charm of Treasure Finding. (relates to Lenses of Focus and Crown of Treasure Finding also)

Also consider the bonus for a 6th level player, commonly defined as the Badge of Nobility, or Medallion of Nobility. I believe that these do not count relative to the Cloak of Many Pockets, and similar Rares, but do they count as the "one" Treasure Enhancer?

I really prefer this as it was originally, with 'Not Useable with any other Treasure Enhancing Tokens'

It is actually intended to be used with the +1 Rare TE tokens, as well as all UR TE Tokens. Some sort of errata will have to be added to the +1 Rare TE Tokens to allow this. Or, the Rare TE Token from this year could have the wording altered specifically allowing stacking only with Charm of Treasure Finding, and it would stack with this year's Rare and not past year rares.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Boilerplate wrote: I would still prefer the bead to be +3. Given that we have +2 save ioun stones at UR, +3 seems right for a four year relic transmute.

For those that want the Bead back to +3 I ask you this: If it stays +2 will you still transmute it? If your answer is yes then it's fine where it's at. I could be wrong but I'd bet some cash that 100% of people advocating for the +3 will still get it at +2.

I'd Transmute it if it were only +1. That doesn't make it a good idea though.

I might even Transmute it if were only freedom of movement. Doesn't make that a good idea either.

Why would you transmute it if it were only +1? Or just freedom of movement? Just to have one? Would you make multiples?

I wasn't clear. +1 and Free Movement. Since I outfit my Sons group who play at Hardcore, they would have value. Still not a good idea for a 4 year Transmute.

I'd make one or two if they were just Free Miovement, just to have them. Even less of a good idea.


My point is, some would be made even under those clearly absurd circumstances.


I'll certainly make multiples of +2 and Freedom of Movement. Not as many though. The number of Fleeces needed will play for transmutes will play a role as well.

How many Kilts will you make if the transmute stands as is and how many left over sets of Kilt UR's will you have that you don't transmute?

Was going to make two or three. I’ll make one because it will be good for Shelly. No, you can’t have my leftovers.

Here's hoping your not kicking yourself later if there ever happens to be an extra 5 piece bonus that Jeff alluded to.

Mike Steele wrote:

Cranston wrote: I tried to stay away from any comments relative to trying to incorporate tokens into apps, but the latest change for the Charm of Treasure Finding just needs to be talked about. 3 new Treasure Enhancing tokens this year. Some play with others, while some do not. Now this one works with some others while not playing with some others.

Ok, as far as I can figure it, the Charm of Treasure Finding works with any of the UR Ioun Stones (Nugget collection) It does not work with any of the Rare Treasure Enhancers, as they do not work with anything else. The Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with CoA, but will work with any of the tokens that make up CoA, so Amulet of Treasure Finding or Ring of Riches, or Horn of Plenty or Charm of Good Fortune, but not all at the same time.

Note that it is not that the Charm of Treasure Finding does not work with Cloak of Many Pockets, but the Cloak of Many Pockets does not work with the Charm of Treasure Finding. (relates to Lenses of Focus and Crown of Treasure Finding also)

Also consider the bonus for a 6th level player, commonly defined as the Badge of Nobility, or Medallion of Nobility. I believe that these do not count relative to the Cloak of Many Pockets, and similar Rares, but do they count as the "one" Treasure Enhancer?

I really prefer this as it was originally, with 'Not Useable with any other Treasure Enhancing Tokens'

It is actually intended to be used with the +1 Rare TE tokens, as well as all UR TE Tokens. Some sort of errata will have to be added to the +1 Rare TE Tokens to allow this. Or, the Rare TE Token from this year could have the wording altered specifically allowing stacking only with Charm of Treasure Finding, and it would stack with this year's Rare and not past year rares.

Probably best phrased like :

Increase the treasure of a token by 1. Cannot be used with coa.

This phrasing does not conflict with the rare TEs, I think

Rob F wrote: Well think about this with the Kilt's: The first two UR Kilt's netted a +2 total stat increase. barrelbane nets a +0. The transmute Kilt gives a +4 to ANY stat of choice and 5hp. Great jump in my book. I think most people not feeling love for the transmute Kilt are at the high end. The negatives don't affect their builds so they don't care and are just looking for a bigger bump. But what about the Rare to UR or low end UR players? I'm guessing those negatives are much more impactful to their builds.

I think I still fall into that category and i certainly care about the negative stats.

But I realize that's just me. I think most folks are upset because 6 is a very powerful number. Not wanting to give that up is understandable, regardless of the net stats.

We can just chalk this up to the kilts being a mistake. They should never have added +6 to any stat. We've just been conditioned for two years to think that it's okay.

Side note - I think the leg slot needs a jump in power at the rare level, now. Compare the kilts with all of the other options at legs and it's pretty laughable. Hopefully some interesting options will be made available to red players.

Charisma pants, anyone?