TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images !!

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote: So I just wanted to "run the numbers" for Brad's case (wanting DEX). This is just my opinion and I see it as this:

The Transmuted Kilt (as proposed) gives +4 DEX to it (still need 2) and +5 HP. Has to give up another slot (say Charm for Vicious) which would be -2 STR.

This means -2 STR (-1 to hit/damage), +5 HP, +2 Healing (Eldritch), +1 damage (Eldritch), -1/2 level, -1 slot (Charm)

If he were to wear the original Kilt (+6 DEX, -2 STR/-2 CON)

Then it comes out as -2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 Healing (no Eldritch), -1 damage (no Eldritch), -1/2 level, no slot taken

If there were a +6 non-Eldritch Kilt transmute it would look like:

-2 Healing (no Eldritch), -1 damage (no Eldritch), -1/2 level, no slot taken


If the Kilt gets printed as is then it is a question is a charm slot (or similar slot) worth +2 healing, +1 damage, +1/2 level. In my mind it is but that is just me.

Is it worth to have a non-Eldritch +6 kilt without any negatives. Again, in my mind, no. The bonus of the Eldritch is strong.

Ed

Can use charm of the sipquick instead to reduce the str penalty by 1.

The .5 Level doesn’t mean anything if you already have two or three Eld items.

Let’s run the case for someone who wants the HP

+4 CON + 5HP vs +6 CON -4 DEX
No change to the build

The Eld Kilt vs Fatherbane gives:
+2 REF
+2 AC
+2 range hit
And, if you have the set,
+1 Damage
+2 healing


All for the low, low cost of -1 FORT

If that was me, there’s no debate.

True enough, the current setup does favor the CON/HP crowd, but not the other users.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote: I am curious to the people that would prefer the transmuted Kilt to be your choice of +6 STR / +6 DEX / +6 CON over the existing draft of +4 STAT and +5 hp...

Would you still like it if the transmute was NOT going to be part of the Eldritch set and just a +6 Relic? Would you still make it?

Ed

I’d rather have 4 + eldritch than 6 to get a level with the boots as most of my builds don’t have ring or rod.

Also, at +6 str, or dex, or con and just a straight relic this power creeps Girdle of Frost Giant strength into oblivion and encroaches in Surts’s Girdle as the #1 pickup for melee due to flexibility. Just get this and a +2 str belt or something - no need to get ur or better waist slot items!

Also also, then... no 5 piece eldritch bonus in 2 years or.... ever?

How is a +St Kilt obsoleting a Waist token? Clearly most combat classes would prefer to just get both. I'm not going to downgrade from my Girdle just because I'm getting the Kilt.

I don't understand about the 5 piece eldritch bonus comment - doesn't the current chart add +2 heal and +1 damage for getting the 5th Eldritch item? It is true Jeff is leaving the door open for a possible additional 5 item bonus.

In the hypothetical under discussion the Kilt would not be part of the eldritch set.

That would mean that there would only be 3 eldritch pieces available today, and only one more announced (the teeth).

So it is not clear if we could get to a 5 piece set with the teeth of cavadar, or at all.

It’s not obsoleting a waist token for everyone - but it means if you only have the budget for one big honkin token - the 6 to any stat one would be the one - even if you planned to go melee.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote: I am curious to the people that would prefer the transmuted Kilt to be your choice of +6 STR / +6 DEX / +6 CON over the existing draft of +4 STAT and +5 hp...

Would you still like it if the transmute was NOT going to be part of the Eldritch set and just a +6 Relic? Would you still make it?

Ed

I’d rather have 4 + eldritch than 6 to get a level with the boots as most of my builds don’t have ring or rod.

Also, at +6 str, or dex, or con and just a straight relic this power creeps Girdle of Frost Giant strength into oblivion and encroaches in Surts’s Girdle as the #1 pickup for melee due to flexibility. Just get this and a +2 str belt or something - no need to get ur or better waist slot items!

Also also, then... no 5 piece eldritch bonus in 2 years or.... ever?

How is a +St Kilt obsoleting a Waist token? Clearly most combat classes would prefer to just get both. I'm not going to downgrade from my Girdle just because I'm getting the Kilt.

I don't understand about the 5 piece eldritch bonus comment - doesn't the current chart add +2 heal and +1 damage for getting the 5th Eldritch item? It is true Jeff is leaving the door open for a possible additional 5 item bonus.

In the hypothetical under discussion the Kilt would not be part of the eldritch set.

That would mean that there would only be 3 eldritch pieces available today, and only one more announced (the teeth).

So it is not clear if we could get to a 5 piece set with the teeth of cavadar, or at all.

It’s not obsoleting a waist token for everyone - but it means if you only have the budget for one big honkin token - the 6 to any stat one would be the one - even if you planned to go melee.

I think that's a pretty pointless hypothetical. There's no way that the Kilt is going to be changed from Eldritch at this point, when we're on the last token of the set and everyone has been buying the Kilts with the understanding that it would be transmuted to an Eldritch token.

Xavon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The .5 Level doesn’t mean anything if you already have two or three Eld items.

Let’s run the case for someone who wants the HP

+4 CON + 5HP vs +6 CON -4 DEX
No change to the build

The Eld Kilt vs Fatherbane gives:
+2 REF
+2 AC
+2 range hit
And, if you have the set,
+1 Damage
+2 healing


All for the low, low cost of -1 FORT

If that was me, there’s no debate.

True enough, the current setup does favor the CON/HP crowd, but not the other users.

Let’s do apples to apples

+4 DEX +5HP vs +6 DEX -2 STR -2 CON

So the Eld is:
+1 Hit
+1 Damage
+10 HP
+1 FORT
+Eldritch bump

For -2 DEX (and all that means)

Not so straightforward, in my opinion, because of my situation. I play in groups with ten CoS, so devalues the +10 HP portion a little.

Yes, I can add Sipquick, or Quicksilver Cube for that matter, to get my +2 DEX. But what do I give up? Onyx Cube? Nuggets? Can’t give up Charm of Blissward; it’s the only way I can turn outsiders (so I have an uncommon charm locked in, but that’s another issue and partly my fault.)

Don’t worry. I’m not saying it’s insurmountable. I’m saying the situation is far from symmetrical, and frankly a pain.

There’s a lot of smart people on this thread. I’m surprised if we can’t figure out something that works for everyone, not just the ones who want the HP above all else.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The .5 Level doesn’t mean anything if you already have two or three Eld items.

Let’s run the case for someone who wants the HP

+4 CON + 5HP vs +6 CON -4 DEX
No change to the build

The Eld Kilt vs Fatherbane gives:
+2 REF
+2 AC
+2 range hit
And, if you have the set,
+1 Damage
+2 healing


All for the low, low cost of -1 FORT

If that was me, there’s no debate.

True enough, the current setup does favor the CON/HP crowd, but not the other users.

Let’s do apples to apples

+4 DEX +5HP vs +6 DEX -2 STR -2 CON

So the Eld is:
+1 Hit
+1 Damage
+10 HP
+1 FORT
+Eldritch bump

For -2 DEX (and all that means)

Not so straightforward, in my opinion, because of my situation. I play in groups with ten CoS, so devalues the +10 HP portion a little.

Yes, I can add Sipquick, or Quicksilver Cube for that matter, to get my +2 DEX. But what do I give up? Onyx Cube? Nuggets? Can’t give up Charm of Blissward; it’s the only way I can turn outsiders (so I have an uncommon charm locked in, but that’s another issue and partly my fault.)

Don’t worry. I’m not saying it’s insurmountable. I’m saying the situation is far from symmetrical, and frankly a pain.

There’s a lot of smart people on this thread. I’m surprised if we can’t figure out something that works for everyone, not just the ones who want the HP above all else.

That is +1 to hit and damage in Melee. And -1 to hit in Range/Spell slides, which is probably what most Dex users is going for.

Also, you won't need the Charm if the new UC holy symbol makes it through intact.

Xavon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The .5 Level doesn’t mean anything if you already have two or three Eld items.

Let’s run the case for someone who wants the HP

+4 CON + 5HP vs +6 CON -4 DEX
No change to the build

The Eld Kilt vs Fatherbane gives:
+2 REF
+2 AC
+2 range hit
And, if you have the set,
+1 Damage
+2 healing


All for the low, low cost of -1 FORT

If that was me, there’s no debate.

True enough, the current setup does favor the CON/HP crowd, but not the other users.

Let’s do apples to apples

+4 DEX +5HP vs +6 DEX -2 STR -2 CON

So the Eld is:
+1 Hit
+1 Damage
+10 HP
+1 FORT
+Eldritch bump

For -2 DEX (and all that means)

Not so straightforward, in my opinion, because of my situation. I play in groups with ten CoS, so devalues the +10 HP portion a little.

Yes, I can add Sipquick, or Quicksilver Cube for that matter, to get my +2 DEX. But what do I give up? Onyx Cube? Nuggets? Can’t give up Charm of Blissward; it’s the only way I can turn outsiders (so I have an uncommon charm locked in, but that’s another issue and partly my fault.)

Don’t worry. I’m not saying it’s insurmountable. I’m saying the situation is far from symmetrical, and frankly a pain.

There’s a lot of smart people on this thread. I’m surprised if we can’t figure out something that works for everyone, not just the ones who want the HP above all else.

That is +1 to hit and damage in Melee. And -1 to hit in Range/Spell slides, which is probably what most Dex users is going for.

Also, you won't need the Charm if the new UC holy symbol makes it through intact.

I agree. The -1 range is part of the fallout from -2 DEX. I was getting tired of typing.

And yes, I do need Blissward, or I sideline my Greater Holy Symbol, which does double turning damage. Holy symbols don’t stack.

But you’re making my point. If the important thing to you is DEX, you have to make significant trade offs. If the important thing to you is HP, you make none.

Brad Mortensen wrote: There’s a lot of smart people on this thread. I’m surprised if we can’t figure out something that works for everyone, not just the ones who want the HP above all else.

Doubt it. Differing goals. If everyone was fine with more power, than +6 & +6 & +6 would work, which is something I wondered whether it would do after Fatherbane came out. The "oh, okay, I guess that's kind of broken" response would tolerate +6 or +6 or +6, maybe, while pushing for +4 & +4 & +4 or whatever (because it will make apps easier to code!). The djinni out of the bottle problem with Tavernbane is what makes having nice, powerful, yet somehow not unbalanced things [sure] so difficult.

In terms of class bias or play style bias or whatever, I use Tavernbane a fair amount. I use Fatherbane for amusement. I will probably use Barrelbane for amusement but am not terribly interested. I'm not that excited by +4 Con and +5 HP but would do it anyway because of Eldritch set bonuses. So, back to different people wanting different things.

It would be pointless, but the endless going around in circles left me thinking the Eldritch token should be:

Kilt of True Happiness
Choose one:
1. You may wield Thor's Hammer
2. Gain 15.5 HP
3. Just one shot kill everything because your STR is 50+ or whatever

But, then, I thought about how there are so many posts that just say the same thing over and over again. I actually don't mind the idea of transmuting some Kilts and not others, so I don't feel as strongly about the end result as others. If anything, having a Wizard HP build and a Wizard Eldritchy build as two different things already mirrors some of what I do below the Eldritch level and doesn't make me sad face that I don't get to have it all. Fortunately, still have Mad ... ... ...

Btw, I do wonder about the impact of different proposals on players with different collection sizes. I've seen comments from those with only a few URs, I think, or maybe it was in one of the other going around in circles debates on MoMM or LoDS or CoS or whatever, but I don't have a feel for how one version or another impacts those players as much.

Ian Lee wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: There’s a lot of smart people on this thread. I’m surprised if we can’t figure out something that works for everyone, not just the ones who want the HP above all else.

Doubt it. Differing goals. If everyone was fine with more power, than +6 & +6 & +6 would work, which is something I wondered whether it would do after Fatherbane came out. The "oh, okay, I guess that's kind of broken" response would tolerate +6 or +6 or +6, maybe, while pushing for +4 & +4 & +4 or whatever (because it will make apps easier to code!). The djinni out of the bottle problem with Tavernbane is what makes having nice, powerful, yet somehow not unbalanced things [sure] so difficult.

In terms of class bias or play style bias or whatever, I use Tavernbane a fair amount. I use Fatherbane for amusement. I will probably use Barrelbane for amusement but am not terribly interested. I'm not that excited by +4 Con and +5 HP but would do it anyway because of Eldritch set bonuses. So, back to different people wanting different things.

It would be pointless, but the endless going around in circles left me thinking the Eldritch token should be:

Kilt of True Happiness
Choose one:
1. You may wield Thor's Hammer
2. Gain 15.5 HP
3. Just one shot kill everything because your STR is 50+ or whatever

But, then, I thought about how there are so many posts that just say the same thing over and over again. I actually don't mind the idea of transmuting some Kilts and not others, so I don't feel as strongly about the end result as others. If anything, having a Wizard HP build and a Wizard Eldritchy build as two different things already mirrors some of what I do below the Eldritch level and doesn't make me sad face that I don't get to have it all. Fortunately, still have Mad ... ... ...

Btw, I do wonder about the impact of different proposals on players with different collection sizes. I've seen comments from those with only a few URs, I think, or maybe it was in one of the other going around in circles debates on MoMM or LoDS or CoS or whatever, but I don't have a feel for how one version or another impacts those players as much.

Is there anyone out there who wouldn't be happy with

1. Change UR Kilt to +4 Str/-2 Dex/-2Con (Could be +5 Str/-2 or 3 Dex/-2 or 3 Con)
2. Make Eld Kilt +4 (or 5) Str or +6 Dex or +6 Con

We can't change the previously printed, and arguable overpowered, kilts of tavernbane and fatherbane. At least unless we feel they are as bad as LoDS and CoS, which I would see a lot of disagreement around.

We CAN change this year's kilt.

I think most, if not all, would agree that strength is valued by more classes than Dex or Con.
I think that we do not HAVE to print a +6 strength kilt as a UR, and we probably shouldn't
I think anyone who opens a +4 Str kilt as a UR would be very happy with it.

Those who are arguing for the eldritch kilt to be strictly better than any of its pieces would be satisfied, as the Eldritch kilt would still be better by virtue of having no negatives. And being part of the eldritch set.

Anything I'm missing here?

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: There’s a lot of smart people on this thread. I’m surprised if we can’t figure out something that works for everyone, not just the ones who want the HP above all else.

Doubt it. Differing goals. If everyone was fine with more power, than +6 & +6 & +6 would work, which is something I wondered whether it would do after Fatherbane came out. The "oh, okay, I guess that's kind of broken" response would tolerate +6 or +6 or +6, maybe, while pushing for +4 & +4 & +4 or whatever (because it will make apps easier to code!). The djinni out of the bottle problem with Tavernbane is what makes having nice, powerful, yet somehow not unbalanced things [sure] so difficult.

In terms of class bias or play style bias or whatever, I use Tavernbane a fair amount. I use Fatherbane for amusement. I will probably use Barrelbane for amusement but am not terribly interested. I'm not that excited by +4 Con and +5 HP but would do it anyway because of Eldritch set bonuses. So, back to different people wanting different things.

It would be pointless, but the endless going around in circles left me thinking the Eldritch token should be:

Kilt of True Happiness
Choose one:
1. You may wield Thor's Hammer
2. Gain 15.5 HP
3. Just one shot kill everything because your STR is 50+ or whatever

But, then, I thought about how there are so many posts that just say the same thing over and over again. I actually don't mind the idea of transmuting some Kilts and not others, so I don't feel as strongly about the end result as others. If anything, having a Wizard HP build and a Wizard Eldritchy build as two different things already mirrors some of what I do below the Eldritch level and doesn't make me sad face that I don't get to have it all. Fortunately, still have Mad ... ... ...

Btw, I do wonder about the impact of different proposals on players with different collection sizes. I've seen comments from those with only a few URs, I think, or maybe it was in one of the other going around in circles debates on MoMM or LoDS or CoS or whatever, but I don't have a feel for how one version or another impacts those players as much.

Is there anyone out there who wouldn't be happy with

1. Change UR Kilt to +4 Str/-2 Dex/-2Con (Could be +5 Str/-2 or 3 Dex/-2 or 3 Con)
2. Make Eld Kilt +4 (or 5) Str or +6 Dex or +6 Con

We can't change the previously printed, and arguable overpowered, kilts of tavernbane and fatherbane. At least unless we feel they are as bad as LoDS and CoS, which I would see a lot of disagreement around.

We CAN change this year's kilt.

I think most, if not all, would agree that strength is valued by more classes than Dex or Con.
I think that we do not HAVE to print a +6 strength kilt as a UR, and we probably shouldn't
I think anyone who opens a +4 Str kilt as a UR would be very happy with it.

Those who are arguing for the eldritch kilt to be strictly better than any of its pieces would be satisfied, as the Eldritch kilt would still be better by virtue of having no negatives. And being part of the eldritch set.

Anything I'm missing here?

I think the only thing we're missing is TPTB don't want us to have +6 of any stat on an Eldritch kilt.

I certainly see the merits of the argument, but my opinion doesn't mean jack if those above think +4 is where it was supposed to be this whole time.

If the UR Kilts had been +3 to dex,STR, con everyone would have been happy with the transmute at +4 plus the bennies. But they weren't.

Rob F wrote: If the UR Kilts had been +3 to dex,STR, con everyone would have been happy with the transmute at +4 plus the bennies. But they weren't.

This is very likely a true statement.

Please weigh in here if you wouldn't mind. This is for anyone who hasn't yet weighed in there, not just Rob F.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=581&id=248263

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote: I don't think Bead of the Lucky Traveler is a good idea. Bead is a new slot and most beads are rather cornercase. +2 saves + Free Movement sounds like best in slot for a long, long time.

I don't like how Jeff is finally giving in to all the complaining for permanent, potionless Polymorphing. I think it's a bad move in the long run because it obsolete Polymorph potions, which I regularly see people use. There should be a bigger cost (more restrictions and less damage) to the Relic and Legendary items. Also, I don't see why you can't let the Wizards use it too.

For the Rogue Necklaces, I'm not a fan of the improved crit range, especially after those overpowered Bracers from last year.

Also, the new instruments are problematic. First off, they complicate things for DM's, since +2/+4 is no longer the standard. Secondly, they obsolete existing and future instruments.

Re: the legendary bard instrument obsoleting the other ur instruments and also maybe a future “bardsong + wand” or “bardsong + consumable” instrument...

Yes but... isn’t that what legendaries do?

Didn’t Surtr’s obsolete all other str belts? (Other than set bonus ones).

Don’t +5 weapons obsolete everything other than +5 weapons (barring auto kill vs monsters)?

Eh. Most legendaries are specific in what they do.

Surtr's is great if you want + Str in you waist slot. But if you aren't melee attacking, there may be other options.

RoP or Bracers are great if you want AC. But not everyone does.

Cloak is great if you want + saves but not everyone prioritizes it.

Weapons and Focus items are a little more problematic. But a swiss army knife "one solution for everything" is problematic to me, especially for Bard instruments when right now you actually do see a variety of instruments used, which I think is a very good thing.