TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images !!

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kakitahan wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The fact we’re the single class that has the hardest time wielding the thing makes no sense to me whatsoever. Never did.

Something to vouch for when class cards are supposedly being redesigned for 2020.

Maybe. Or, fix the Hammer. But I think I agree with you in that this became a distraction.

Thor’s doesn’t cause the Kilt problem, it just highlights it.

Anyway, I guess the immediate goal of this is to figure out a way to make the Eldritch Kilt better than any of the three Kilts, not just one of them. That, or let the Eld be worse than all three.

To your specific class build it may not be better but based on the overall numbers it's a better Token than any of the three UR Kilts. +4 total stat increase vs either +2, or +0. +5 additional HP vs +0 HP. Eldritch vs. Non-Eldritch set. Sorry numbers are numbers. It's better.

As currently designed, for many builds the component UR Kilts will be better than the Eldritch Kilt, because many builds focus on one attribute and the negatives in others don't have much negative impact. Based on your "numbers are numbers" theory, the Medallion of Valhalla is nearly twice as good as the currently designed Kilt, because it adds up to +7 where the Eldritch Kilt is just +4.

So, if the Eldritch Kilt is changed to +6 to any of the three attributes (which is the only way to make it clearly better than any of the components, and is my recommendation), it is hard to argue that is overpowered since it is still one point less than the UR Medallion of Valhalla. It also follows the Redoubt Relic set precedent, of having the transmute erase the negative attributes and leave the positive as-is.

Once again advocating for Matt's 4/6/6 solution. It would help keep strength craziness in check on an as yet unreleased item. Not case any meaningful gful power creep. Make the chatacter builders programming easier. Keep clerics happier, and the token text would feel less patched out of the gate. All while still fitting of pattern of being "better" or at least equal to the sum of its parts.

More importantly though it would "feel" better since you wouldn't see a 6UR going down to 4eldritched and IMO that would sell more tokens. I know for myself at least the 4/6/6 solution would result in my group buying at least 4 more URs this year to finish our kilts, as were probably just going to keep our UR kilts because capital investment is also something that needs to be considered when making high end items.

Picc wrote: Once again advocating for Matt's 4/6/6 solution. It would help keep strength craziness in check on an as yet unreleased item. Not case any meaningful gful power creep. Make the chatacter builders programming easier. Keep clerics happier, and the token text would feel less patched out of the gate. All while still fitting of pattern of being "better" or at least equal to the sum of its parts.

More importantly though it would "feel" better since you wouldn't see a 6UR going down to 4eldritched and IMO that would sell more tokens. I know for myself at least the 4/6/6 solution would result in my group buying at least 4 more URs this year to finish our kilts, as were probably just going to keep our UR kilts because capital investment is also something that needs to be considered when making high end items.

Except that you would see the +6 St UR going down to +4 St Eldritch. Unless the UR Kilt is downgraded equally, which is still possible this year. I think the bonus on the Eldritch Kilt for each attribute should be equal to the bonus on each attribute for the UR Kilts, for the reasons you stated. So for the most part we're in agreement.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kakitahan wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The fact we’re the single class that has the hardest time wielding the thing makes no sense to me whatsoever. Never did.

Something to vouch for when class cards are supposedly being redesigned for 2020.

Maybe. Or, fix the Hammer. But I think I agree with you in that this became a distraction.

Thor’s doesn’t cause the Kilt problem, it just highlights it.

Anyway, I guess the immediate goal of this is to figure out a way to make the Eldritch Kilt better than any of the three Kilts, not just one of them. That, or let the Eld be worse than all three.

To your specific class build it may not be better but based on the overall numbers it's a better Token than any of the three UR Kilts. +4 total stat increase vs either +2, or +0. +5 additional HP vs +0 HP. Eldritch vs. Non-Eldritch set. Sorry numbers are numbers. It's better.

How about we make it “choose a stat to be +1, then +100 CHA” then it will be the best token in history.

Because math, since you’re apparently assuming all stats are equally valuable for everyone.

All stats are probably not equally valuable for everyone. So lets give everyone a Token with equal stats. BOOM!! Transmuted Kilt does just that. Equal +4 for everyone. And Equal +5 HP for everyone.

I know the Clerics have always had a rough go with the ranged weapons. But to me their Clerics so I get why they aren't great shooters/throwers. However I do think it should be easy for them to wield any Hammer. To me it's the go to weapon for Clerics and Dwarf Fighters. So yes that min DEX requirement for Thors is where the problem lies for the Clerics. I get why it was done though, to prevent super glass cannons on the strength side from throwing it. Maybe errata it so all classes except the Cleric require the DEX min. Not sure if that is the ideal route to go but it's an option.

Mike Steele wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kakitahan wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The fact we’re the single class that has the hardest time wielding the thing makes no sense to me whatsoever. Never did.

Something to vouch for when class cards are supposedly being redesigned for 2020.

Maybe. Or, fix the Hammer. But I think I agree with you in that this became a distraction.

Thor’s doesn’t cause the Kilt problem, it just highlights it.

Anyway, I guess the immediate goal of this is to figure out a way to make the Eldritch Kilt better than any of the three Kilts, not just one of them. That, or let the Eld be worse than all three.

To your specific class build it may not be better but based on the overall numbers it's a better Token than any of the three UR Kilts. +4 total stat increase vs either +2, or +0. +5 additional HP vs +0 HP. Eldritch vs. Non-Eldritch set. Sorry numbers are numbers. It's better.

As currently designed, for many builds the component UR Kilts will be better than the Eldritch Kilt, because many builds focus on one attribute and the negatives in others don't have much negative impact. Based on your "numbers are numbers" theory, the Medallion of Valhalla is nearly twice as good as the currently designed Kilt, because it adds up to +7 where the Eldritch Kilt is just +4.

So, if the Eldritch Kilt is changed to +6 to any of the three attributes (which is the only way to make it clearly better than any of the components, and is my recommendation), it is hard to argue that is overpowered since it is still one point less than the UR Medallion of Valhalla. It also follows the Redoubt Relic set precedent, of having the transmute erase the negative attributes and leave the positive as-is.

Well Mike compared to the UR Garnet Cube the Kilt nets a +4 bonus. And to the UR Hat of Healing which gives no stat bonuses a +6!! Funny numbers are funny numbers.

EDIT: I do agree with your first statement that the UR Kilts are can be seen as "better" for the folks who focus on one set of attributes. And that was the problem with them all along. Because as you said, those same people don't care about the negatives. So they wind up with a over powered UR. The negatives were supposed to balance things a bit. But they don't.

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kakitahan wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The fact we’re the single class that has the hardest time wielding the thing makes no sense to me whatsoever. Never did.

Something to vouch for when class cards are supposedly being redesigned for 2020.

Maybe. Or, fix the Hammer. But I think I agree with you in that this became a distraction.

Thor’s doesn’t cause the Kilt problem, it just highlights it.

Anyway, I guess the immediate goal of this is to figure out a way to make the Eldritch Kilt better than any of the three Kilts, not just one of them. That, or let the Eld be worse than all three.

To your specific class build it may not be better but based on the overall numbers it's a better Token than any of the three UR Kilts. +4 total stat increase vs either +2, or +0. +5 additional HP vs +0 HP. Eldritch vs. Non-Eldritch set. Sorry numbers are numbers. It's better.

How about we make it “choose a stat to be +1, then +100 CHA” then it will be the best token in history.

Because math, since you’re apparently assuming all stats are equally valuable for everyone.

All stats are probably not equally valuable for everyone. So lets give everyone a Token with equal stats. BOOM!! Transmuted Kilt does just that. Equal +4 for everyone. And Equal +5 HP for everyone.

The arguement is that to any stat chaser (which happens in TD due to specificity of roles) is that the components to make the eldritch are more desired than the item itself. The core stat is +6 vs +4. Yes, negatives exist on the components, but if you don’t care about those stats (and people who are maxing don’t) it makes the eldritch worse by comparison. You are correct that composite numbers will be lower. But with so many other locked in enhancers at the high end, the net gain outweighs the negative.

I don’t think anyone is arguing the proposed eldritch kilt isn’t good; the arguement is that at the mid to high end, it might not be good enough to warrant making a ton over just using the component piece, particularly if chasing STR or DEX. I think the current +4 and 5 hp fixed any con concerns.

Templar wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kakitahan wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The fact we’re the single class that has the hardest time wielding the thing makes no sense to me whatsoever. Never did.

Something to vouch for when class cards are supposedly being redesigned for 2020.

Maybe. Or, fix the Hammer. But I think I agree with you in that this became a distraction.

Thor’s doesn’t cause the Kilt problem, it just highlights it.

Anyway, I guess the immediate goal of this is to figure out a way to make the Eldritch Kilt better than any of the three Kilts, not just one of them. That, or let the Eld be worse than all three.

To your specific class build it may not be better but based on the overall numbers it's a better Token than any of the three UR Kilts. +4 total stat increase vs either +2, or +0. +5 additional HP vs +0 HP. Eldritch vs. Non-Eldritch set. Sorry numbers are numbers. It's better.

How about we make it “choose a stat to be +1, then +100 CHA” then it will be the best token in history.

Because math, since you’re apparently assuming all stats are equally valuable for everyone.

All stats are probably not equally valuable for everyone. So lets give everyone a Token with equal stats. BOOM!! Transmuted Kilt does just that. Equal +4 for everyone. And Equal +5 HP for everyone.

The arguement is that to any stat chaser (which happens in TD due to specificity of roles) is that the components to make the eldritch are more desired than the item itself. The core stat is +6 vs +4. Yes, negatives exist on the components, but if you don’t care about those stats (and people who are maxing don’t) it makes the eldritch worse by comparison. You are correct that composite numbers will be lower. But with so many other locked in enhancers at the high end, the net gain outweighs the negative.

I don’t think anyone is arguing the proposed eldritch kilt isn’t good; the arguement is that at the mid to high end, it might not be good enough to warrant making a ton over just using the component piece, particularly if chasing STR or DEX. I think the current +4 and 5 hp fixed any con concerns.

I get what your saying. Edited my response to Mike.

Templar wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kakitahan wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The fact we’re the single class that has the hardest time wielding the thing makes no sense to me whatsoever. Never did.

Something to vouch for when class cards are supposedly being redesigned for 2020.

Maybe. Or, fix the Hammer. But I think I agree with you in that this became a distraction.

Thor’s doesn’t cause the Kilt problem, it just highlights it.

Anyway, I guess the immediate goal of this is to figure out a way to make the Eldritch Kilt better than any of the three Kilts, not just one of them. That, or let the Eld be worse than all three.

To your specific class build it may not be better but based on the overall numbers it's a better Token than any of the three UR Kilts. +4 total stat increase vs either +2, or +0. +5 additional HP vs +0 HP. Eldritch vs. Non-Eldritch set. Sorry numbers are numbers. It's better.

How about we make it “choose a stat to be +1, then +100 CHA” then it will be the best token in history.

Because math, since you’re apparently assuming all stats are equally valuable for everyone.

All stats are probably not equally valuable for everyone. So lets give everyone a Token with equal stats. BOOM!! Transmuted Kilt does just that. Equal +4 for everyone. And Equal +5 HP for everyone.

The arguement is that to any stat chaser (which happens in TD due to specificity of roles) is that the components to make the eldritch are more desired than the item itself. The core stat is +6 vs +4. Yes, negatives exist on the components, but if you don’t care about those stats (and people who are maxing don’t) it makes the eldritch worse by comparison. You are correct that composite numbers will be lower. But with so many other locked in enhancers at the high end, the net gain outweighs the negative.

I don’t think anyone is arguing the proposed eldritch kilt isn’t good; the arguement is that at the mid to high end, it might not be good enough to warrant making a ton over just using the component piece, particularly if chasing STR or DEX. I think the current +4 and 5 hp fixed any con concerns.

Exactly. And I agree with you the current version fixes the Con issue (except for Fort saves), but falls far short of the URs in Dex & St. I don't think an Eldritch Transmute should ever be worse than the component URs, and this one is for min/maxers.

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kakitahan wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The fact we’re the single class that has the hardest time wielding the thing makes no sense to me whatsoever. Never did.

Something to vouch for when class cards are supposedly being redesigned for 2020.

Maybe. Or, fix the Hammer. But I think I agree with you in that this became a distraction.

Thor’s doesn’t cause the Kilt problem, it just highlights it.

Anyway, I guess the immediate goal of this is to figure out a way to make the Eldritch Kilt better than any of the three Kilts, not just one of them. That, or let the Eld be worse than all three.

To your specific class build it may not be better but based on the overall numbers it's a better Token than any of the three UR Kilts. +4 total stat increase vs either +2, or +0. +5 additional HP vs +0 HP. Eldritch vs. Non-Eldritch set. Sorry numbers are numbers. It's better.

As currently designed, for many builds the component UR Kilts will be better than the Eldritch Kilt, because many builds focus on one attribute and the negatives in others don't have much negative impact. Based on your "numbers are numbers" theory, the Medallion of Valhalla is nearly twice as good as the currently designed Kilt, because it adds up to +7 where the Eldritch Kilt is just +4.

So, if the Eldritch Kilt is changed to +6 to any of the three attributes (which is the only way to make it clearly better than any of the components, and is my recommendation), it is hard to argue that is overpowered since it is still one point less than the UR Medallion of Valhalla. It also follows the Redoubt Relic set precedent, of having the transmute erase the negative attributes and leave the positive as-is.

Well Mike compared to the UR Garnet Cube the Kilt nets a +4 bonus. And to the UR Hat of Healing which gives no stat bonuses a +6!! Funny numbers are funny numbers.

EDIT: I do agree with your first statement that the UR Kilts are can be seen as "better" for the folks who focus on one set of attributes. And that was the problem with them all along. Because as you said, those same people don't care about the negatives. So they wind up with a over powered UR. The negatives were supposed to balance things a bit. But they don't.

Rob, I agree with you that the core issue might be that the URs were overpowered because the negatives didn't matter to a lot of people. That's why I think the transmute needs to be equal to the bonus of each of the individual UR Kilts. And, we are talking about an Eldritch transmute - I think even at +6 to an attribute, it might not be as powerful as the Eldritch Boots.

I'm going to toss this out again, since I saw no responses, good or bad.

Fiddy wrote: I know we're trying to avoid a penalty on the Kilt transmute, but would the following work:

Pick from +6/+6/+6 but take -1 to melee and ranged damage. (Or -1 to melee and ranged to-hit)

Mike Steele wrote:

Picc wrote: Once again advocating for Matt's 4/6/6 solution. It would help keep strength craziness in check on an as yet unreleased item. Not case any meaningful gful power creep. Make the chatacter builders programming easier. Keep clerics happier, and the token text would feel less patched out of the gate. All while still fitting of pattern of being "better" or at least equal to the sum of its parts.

More importantly though it would "feel" better since you wouldn't see a 6UR going down to 4eldritched and IMO that would sell more tokens. I know for myself at least the 4/6/6 solution would result in my group buying at least 4 more URs this year to finish our kilts, as were probably just going to keep our UR kilts because capital investment is also something that needs to be considered when making high end items.

Except that you would see the +6 St UR going down to +4 St Eldritch. Unless the UR Kilt is downgraded equally, which is still possible this year. I think the bonus on the Eldritch Kilt for each attribute should be equal to the bonus on each attribute for the UR Kilts, for the reasons you stated. So for the most part we're in agreement.

There is an easy fix to that "problem"
Make the UR strength kilt +4 Str/-2Dex/-2Con

That would allow the Eld Kilt to be better than each individual kilt, and continue the trend established with Redoubt.

We haven't printed the +6 Str kilt, and we probably shouldn't.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Picc wrote: Once again advocating for Matt's 4/6/6 solution. It would help keep strength craziness in check on an as yet unreleased item. Not case any meaningful gful power creep. Make the chatacter builders programming easier. Keep clerics happier, and the token text would feel less patched out of the gate. All while still fitting of pattern of being "better" or at least equal to the sum of its parts.

More importantly though it would "feel" better since you wouldn't see a 6UR going down to 4eldritched and IMO that would sell more tokens. I know for myself at least the 4/6/6 solution would result in my group buying at least 4 more URs this year to finish our kilts, as were probably just going to keep our UR kilts because capital investment is also something that needs to be considered when making high end items.

Except that you would see the +6 St UR going down to +4 St Eldritch. Unless the UR Kilt is downgraded equally, which is still possible this year. I think the bonus on the Eldritch Kilt for each attribute should be equal to the bonus on each attribute for the UR Kilts, for the reasons you stated. So for the most part we're in agreement.

There is an easy fix to that "problem"
Make the UR strength kilt +4 Str/-2Dex/-2Con

That would allow the Eld Kilt to be better than each individual kilt, and continue the trend established with Redoubt.

We haven't printed the +6 Str kilt, and we probably shouldn't.

I agree with you, the ST Kilt could be lowered to +5 or +4, and the Eldritch Kilt could be lowered accordingly. According to most it seems, the St attribute is the most problematic one, so we're lucky that the St Kilt hasn't been printed yet and can still be modified.