TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images!

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: +4 STR, or 5 DEX, or 5 CON + 1 HP

Math!

My issue there is again people are going to see I have a 6 right now, why would I pay to trade it in for a 5.

4/6/6 you got me, I'm happily making 2 everything is consistent.

4/5/5+1HP, I'm going to start arguing feelings again

I agree completely - I think Dx & Con need to be +6 to be clearly better than the components. And I don't think those two stats are overpowered at +6.

I'd rather have the ST at +5 - and that's what it is on the current transmute. 5 / 6 / 6 is my final answer.

Mike Steele wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: Would also be nice to stop making STR enhancers at the UR level up that are not reprints or functional reprints as I don't mind Dex 60 builds (my Dex 52 build was not what I consider good enough for HC play), but having to hit and damage key off the same thing is a fundamental problem in games where other attributes don't add to both.

Do you think +5 St is really overpowered? That's equal to the Relic Frost Giant Girdle, which seems like a pretty reasonable comparison for an Eldritch transmuted token.

I would have thought the comment would have been clear, but anyway.

You have a +4/5/7 UR/R/L to STR. Okay. It exists. Then, you add +2 in like four other slots. Then, on top of everything that already exists, add another +6 in a new slot exacerbates combat variance. Just stop adding more to every slot. Legs did not need any physical stat increases given what's already possible in the game.

When you can start at 19 DEX and get to 60 DEX, there's got to be other design space than just pumping up stats more and more. Dex isn't a problem, IME, because it doesn't increase damage and has significant diminishing returns and has significant opportunity costs to go DEXtreme, so I don't care that much if it keeps getting higher and it's kind of amusing to see how absurd it has already gotten.

Meanwhile, STR has a very different cool-curve. Sure, could make tokens like "+3 STR, -3 to-hit", "+3 STR, -3 damage", or whatever to mitigate STR benefits and open up design space, but then people would be wondering why it wasn't just bonuses to-hit or to damage. Focus is starting to look like it's going down this same path. If want to contain spell damage, healing, and/or polymorph damage bonuses, as much as it makes sense to me to have Cloak of Focus, Ioun Stone of Focus, et al, may not be the best idea under the same logic that more and more of the same thing can be bad and there are other possibilities for game effects.

Here's the thing. I think the Kilt, or any Eldritch item, needs to be demonstrably and noticeably better than any UR or Relic. Regardless of slot. Eldritch items require multiple URs, collected across multiple years. And even factoring in the Eldritch set bonus (now thankfully balanced and nerfed), the Kilt does not pass that test.

I hear the cries of 'flexibility'. But if I have the three kilts, I have flexibility.

Compare to the Relic belt (also +5 STR), or the relic robe (+7 DEX and +3 INT). Compare to any number of URs (Moonhide Robe, Medallion of Valhalla, Stu-pendous Pendant, Gloves of Brute, Glove of Cutpurse). It is better than some of those, but not all of them. And it is not noticeably better than any of those URs. From a min-maxer's perspective, it is at best slightly better than the components, and and worst, worse.

True, the set bonus is nice, if it is exactly your second Eldritch item. But at third or higher, I would argue the Viper Strike set is a better bonus, especially for Monk and Rogue. True, the basic item bonus for the Kilt is better, but it is a Eldritch Item. It ought to be. And if I can use the Viper Pants to get that set, freeing up my Shirt slot for that tasty new UR, I'm going to be tempted to take that . I probably won't, but I'll be tempted. And I feel like that is wrong...

So I don't know how to fix it, since my other ideas were shot down. I just feel the Kilt as is does not live up to its forebears, or its cost.

Xavon wrote:
So I don't know how to fix it, since my other ideas were shot down. I just feel the Kilt as is does not live up to its forebears, or its cost.

We don't know what the cost is exactly, so you might have an accurate statement you also might not.


That did get me thinking though if we combined the stats of the 3 Kilts what it would look like just cause I was curious.

+4 Str, -1 Dex, -1 Con. That is what the Rod did. It only combined the stats and did nothing else on its own. The boots just took the highest stat +5 damage and applied it to all damage types (and made it Eldritch). Not saying the kilt should be +4, -1, -1. Just got me thinking is all what it would look like.

Ian Lee wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: Would also be nice to stop making STR enhancers at the UR level up that are not reprints or functional reprints as I don't mind Dex 60 builds (my Dex 52 build was not what I consider good enough for HC play), but having to hit and damage key off the same thing is a fundamental problem in games where other attributes don't add to both.

Do you think +5 St is really overpowered? That's equal to the Relic Frost Giant Girdle, which seems like a pretty reasonable comparison for an Eldritch transmuted token.

I would have thought the comment would have been clear, but anyway.

You have a +4/5/7 UR/R/L to STR. Okay. It exists. Then, you add +2 in like four other slots. Then, on top of everything that already exists, add another +6 in a new slot exacerbates combat variance. Just stop adding more to every slot. Legs did not need any physical stat increases given what's already possible in the game.

When you can start at 19 DEX and get to 60 DEX, there's got to be other design space than just pumping up stats more and more. Dex isn't a problem, IME, because it doesn't increase damage and has significant diminishing returns and has significant opportunity costs to go DEXtreme, so I don't care that much if it keeps getting higher and it's kind of amusing to see how absurd it has already gotten.

Meanwhile, STR has a very different cool-curve. Sure, could make tokens like "+3 STR, -3 to-hit", "+3 STR, -3 damage", or whatever to mitigate STR benefits and open up design space, but then people would be wondering why it wasn't just bonuses to-hit or to damage. Focus is starting to look like it's going down this same path. If want to contain spell damage, healing, and/or polymorph damage bonuses, as much as it makes sense to me to have Cloak of Focus, Ioun Stone of Focus, et al, may not be the best idea under the same logic that more and more of the same thing can be bad and there are other possibilities for game effects.

You're right, I should have just phrased that sentence as "I don't agree that +5 St is really overpowered". Compared to other stat enhancing tokens, I think +5 is just fine. I prefer the Eldritch Kilt to be +5 St or +6 Dex or +6 Con. That's pretty close to what it is currently. I totally respect that you and others would prefer different numbers. It's clear in this case Jeff has no hope of making everyone happy, it will be interesting to see what the next revision shows. On this and several other tokens. It does see like there is a little bit of consensus forming around (+4 or +5) St or +6 Dex or +6 Con, clearly not 100% consensus.

As an FYI, the Girdle progression was +3 / +5 / +7.

It would seem that no matter where the Eldritch kilt lands at this point, a large sect of folks will be unhappy.

I know that many have been arguing the transmuted kilt has to be at least +6, because it needs to be at least as good as all of the components it was made from - i.e. Why would you want to downgrade your token to a +5?

I think that's a totally fair and rational argument.

Well I think we've argued it to the point of exhaustion. Many horses have been beaten. Then beaten again.

I've decided to hell with it. It is clearly shaping up to be a year of correction. Plans are being laid in a huge way for the long-term health of the game. That's not me inferring anything. I'm just echoing the first post in the Notes thread. Let's not forget that it started out as a +4 kilt.

We've got some feel-bads spread out all over the place right now. Wands, Lenses, Cloaks, Legendaries, and Kilts. Even the bead is catching some hot debate.

Wherever this kilt lands, it'll be because that's where TPTB decided it needed to be. If it's not as powerful as the URs it was transmuted from, it'll be because we had too good of a thing to begin with. Just another correction in a year filled with them. Let's just put our faith in Jeff and see where things land.

MasterED wrote: So if you had to pick just one of these for the Transmuted Eldritch Kilt power - which would you choose (assuming you were going to transmute one)?

• +3 STR and +3 DEX and +3 CON
• +5HP and (+4 STR or +4 DEX or +4 CON)
• +5 STR or +5 DEX or +5 CON

Ed

What is this politics? Least objectionable
If you are making the token and I have to decide and it’s number three but I really believe +6 to one stat is the best option

Arnold wrote: It would seem that no matter where the Eldritch kilt lands at this point, a large sect of folks will be unhappy.

I know that many have been arguing the transmuted kilt has to be at least +6, because it needs to be at least as good as all of the components it was made from - i.e. Why would you want to downgrade your token to a +5?

I think that's a totally fair and rational argument.

Well I think we've argued it to the point of exhaustion. Many horses have been beaten. Then beaten again.

I've decided to hell with it. It is clearly shaping up to be a year of correction. Plans are being laid in a huge way for the long-term health of the game. That's not me inferring anything. I'm just echoing the first post in the Notes thread. Let's not forget that it started out as a +4 kilt.

We've got some feel-bads spread out all over the place right now. Wands, Lenses, Cloaks, Legendaries, and Kilts. Even the bead is catching some hot debate.

Wherever this kilt lands, it'll be because that's where TPTB decided it needed to be. If it's not as powerful as the URs it was transmuted from, it'll be because we had too good of a thing to begin with. Just another correction in a year filled with them. Let's just put our faith in Jeff and see where things land.

I wouldn't put to much stock in it. Its always like this around design time (well other then the LoDs/eldritched thing, that's sorta unpresidented but I'm sure we'll survive that too)

Picc wrote:

Arnold wrote: It would seem that no matter where the Eldritch kilt lands at this point, a large sect of folks will be unhappy.

I know that many have been arguing the transmuted kilt has to be at least +6, because it needs to be at least as good as all of the components it was made from - i.e. Why would you want to downgrade your token to a +5?

I think that's a totally fair and rational argument.

Well I think we've argued it to the point of exhaustion. Many horses have been beaten. Then beaten again.

I've decided to hell with it. It is clearly shaping up to be a year of correction. Plans are being laid in a huge way for the long-term health of the game. That's not me inferring anything. I'm just echoing the first post in the Notes thread. Let's not forget that it started out as a +4 kilt.

We've got some feel-bads spread out all over the place right now. Wands, Lenses, Cloaks, Legendaries, and Kilts. Even the bead is catching some hot debate.

Wherever this kilt lands, it'll be because that's where TPTB decided it needed to be. If it's not as powerful as the URs it was transmuted from, it'll be because we had too good of a thing to begin with. Just another correction in a year filled with them. Let's just put our faith in Jeff and see where things land.

I wouldn't put to much stock in it. Its always like this around design time (well other then the LoDs/eldritched thing, that's sorta unpresidented but I'm sure we'll survive that too)

Its fair to say that this year is a bit more... spicy... than usual. Not surprising given the major adjustments being made. But in a few days, this will all be over.

Then we can argue about the recipes.

Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote:

Arnold wrote: It would seem that no matter where the Eldritch kilt lands at this point, a large sect of folks will be unhappy.

I know that many have been arguing the transmuted kilt has to be at least +6, because it needs to be at least as good as all of the components it was made from - i.e. Why would you want to downgrade your token to a +5?

I think that's a totally fair and rational argument.

Well I think we've argued it to the point of exhaustion. Many horses have been beaten. Then beaten again.

I've decided to hell with it. It is clearly shaping up to be a year of correction. Plans are being laid in a huge way for the long-term health of the game. That's not me inferring anything. I'm just echoing the first post in the Notes thread. Let's not forget that it started out as a +4 kilt.

We've got some feel-bads spread out all over the place right now. Wands, Lenses, Cloaks, Legendaries, and Kilts. Even the bead is catching some hot debate.

Wherever this kilt lands, it'll be because that's where TPTB decided it needed to be. If it's not as powerful as the URs it was transmuted from, it'll be because we had too good of a thing to begin with. Just another correction in a year filled with them. Let's just put our faith in Jeff and see where things land.

I wouldn't put to much stock in it. Its always like this around design time (well other then the LoDs/eldritched thing, that's sorta unpresidented but I'm sure we'll survive that too)

Its fair to say that this year is a bit more... spicy... than usual. Not surprising given the major adjustments being made. But in a few days, this will all be over.

Then we can argue about the recipes.

These discussions have been downright civil compared to some years.

MasterED wrote: So if you had to pick just one of these for the Transmuted Eldritch Kilt power - which would you choose (assuming you were going to transmute one)?

• +3 STR and +3 DEX and +3 CON
• +5HP and (+4 STR or +4 DEX or +4 CON)
• +5 STR or +5 DEX or +5 CON

Ed

+5 STR or +5 DEX or +5 CON

Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote:

Arnold wrote: It would seem that no matter where the Eldritch kilt lands at this point, a large sect of folks will be unhappy.

I know that many have been arguing the transmuted kilt has to be at least +6, because it needs to be at least as good as all of the components it was made from - i.e. Why would you want to downgrade your token to a +5?

I think that's a totally fair and rational argument.

Well I think we've argued it to the point of exhaustion. Many horses have been beaten. Then beaten again.

I've decided to hell with it. It is clearly shaping up to be a year of correction. Plans are being laid in a huge way for the long-term health of the game. That's not me inferring anything. I'm just echoing the first post in the Notes thread. Let's not forget that it started out as a +4 kilt.

We've got some feel-bads spread out all over the place right now. Wands, Lenses, Cloaks, Legendaries, and Kilts. Even the bead is catching some hot debate.

Wherever this kilt lands, it'll be because that's where TPTB decided it needed to be. If it's not as powerful as the URs it was transmuted from, it'll be because we had too good of a thing to begin with. Just another correction in a year filled with them. Let's just put our faith in Jeff and see where things land.

I wouldn't put to much stock in it. Its always like this around design time (well other then the LoDs/eldritched thing, that's sorta unpresidented but I'm sure we'll survive that too)

Its fair to say that this year is a bit more... spicy... than usual. Not surprising given the major adjustments being made. But in a few days, this will all be over.

Then we can argue about the recipes.

Looking forward to it, this year seems like it would be an awesome time for some special alt recipes. For the rogue legendary I propose 1 solid page of sapphire necklaces as the alt