TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images!

Boilerplate wrote: For those who think the kilt would be too good at +6, can you explain why? Is it because of you are primarily concerned about inflated combat stats, AC, saves, or HP?

My theory is that the +5 camp consists of folks who worry most about impact on combat stats. Admittedly, +6 to str and dex (which impact combat stats) seems strong. And for these folks, the drop below 6 only costs a single point of hit/damage. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

My theory is that the +6 camp consists of folks who worry most about HP and don’t really care at all about hit, damage, AC, or saves. For these folks, the drop below 6 feels worse because it is 5 HP. Perhaps worth fighting over.

If I am right, then couldn’t we make everyone happy with a comprise kilt with +4 (or +5) to one stat and +5 HP? That way we can avoid inflating combat stats, AC, and saves while still allowing Tavernbane wearers to maintain status quo HP.

For me it’s because:

1. Str is the most important stat for dealing damage in the game.

2. The absolute best STR item ever printed is a legendary at +7 in the waist slot, which has long been considered one of the more powerful slots.

3. The kilt as is at 5 is strictly better than 5 str, as it:
A. Nets you a level without consuming a slot of you have 1 other eldritch piece.
B. Nets you +1 to melee, ranged, and spell damage if you have at least 1 other eldritch piece.
C. Nets you +2 to healing if you have at least 1 other eldritch piece (+4 if you have exactly 1)
D. You can change it to dex or con if you’d ever like to!


Beyond that, I’m concerned about the fast power creep this gives, and the disproportionate benefit it gives to melee monks and rangers who already are whooping the other melee classes. Rangers and Monks are going to push further ahead the more and more stackable STR that gets made.


It gives all melee classes +2 or 3 to hit, and realistically +3 or 4 to damage (from thebset bonus) if not now then in 2 years when the Cavadar transmute is done.


So, the whole concern is around STR for me.

I’d be perfectly fine if it were +4 str or +6 dex or +6 con - to me that’s not too powerful.

It’s the +4, now 5, and maybe soon to be 6 STR that I object to because it is a getting to parity with a legendary in a stronger slot.

If we’re going to throw +3/+3 in melee onto this sucker, it’s probably better than the boots of the four winds for the majority of players who build towards melee.

How about doing something similar to the neck items, split it up. I'd be on board with +5 to one attribute and +3 to another. That's barely better than a neck UR.

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Kenban wrote: I think the kilt should be +6 since the components are +6. If that is too powerful for the price instead of nerfing the kilt, make the recipe more expensive. If people feel like 3 Ultra Rare tokens is not enough, maybe require a 4th Ultra Rare. The recipe could require any UR pants, or even just a 4th Ultra Rare, your choice you can use anything.

It feels like at the very least the combined item should be equal to the sum of its parts, if those parts are +6, the result should be at least +6.

Would it be ok then to have a +20 str belt if the recipe was expensive enough? The problem with OP tokens is they will eventually ruin the game. Slow and steady is a better course.

Ed

+1 to this. Slow and steady is better.

+6 isn't going any further, it's just raising the floor to the even 3 levels bonus all the component kilts already give you.

You can't use the point of 5 and 6 are equivalent because bonus occur at even numbers because then I could say well 4 and 5 are equivalent so lets just make it +4.

Ed

Fiddy wrote: What if we went the other direction on the Kilt? Bigger bonus and penalties. +9 to one stat, minus 4 (or 5) to the other 2.

Nope I can't support that. That is what got us in trouble with the UR Kilts people then use that as the bar and expect it (especially when their negative can be completely mitigated with a Relic+ robe and the Paladin).

Ed

I posted this in the UR thread:

The CON/DEX UR gave +6/-4 (net 2) the STR gives net 0. I am really surprised TPTB didn't come out with the Kilt as +2 STR / + 2 DEX / +2 CON. That would have been a net 6 which is clearly better than the 4 and 5 that got adjusted.

I am going to keep my +5 for the one I transmute and I am going to hope it doesn't get changed again.

You get my vote for any of the following:

+3 to all three stats
+4 to one stat and +5 HP
+5 to one stat
Or something similar to above that is inventive

Ed

Fiddy wrote: What if we went the other direction on the Kilt? Bigger bonus and penalties. +9 to one stat, minus 4 (or 5) to the other 2.

I feel like +6 in the stat of your choice and -2 in the other to again keep the kilt with the +6 but reduce the penalties is the compromise that most people are going to be happy with.

James J Krot wrote:

Fiddy wrote: What if we went the other direction on the Kilt? Bigger bonus and penalties. +9 to one stat, minus 4 (or 5) to the other 2.

I feel like +6 in the stat of your choice and -2 in the other to again keep the kilt with the +6 but reduce the penalties is the compromise that most people are going to be happy with.

Not me. Any of Ed's ideas work for me.

Harlax wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Fiddy wrote: What if we went the other direction on the Kilt? Bigger bonus and penalties. +9 to one stat, minus 4 (or 5) to the other 2.

I feel like +6 in the stat of your choice and -2 in the other to again keep the kilt with the +6 but reduce the penalties is the compromise that most people are going to be happy with.

Not me. Any of Ed's ideas work for me.

I would live with the +4 to one stat and +5 hp as well.

I wonder if we could just bypass all the stat nonsense and make it something like:

+2 to hit, +2 to damage, qualify for stat requirements on any 1 token, +15 HP

Maybe that give everyone what they want out of it without confusing the issue of whether 1 point of con is worth 1 point of str or whether the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.


I don’t get the sense people really care about the ac, reflex or fort saves they are getting or their to-hit in their secondary attack mode.

You could type the damage to eldritch.

Matthew Hayward wrote: For me it’s because:

1. Str is the most important stat for dealing damage in the game.

2. The absolute best STR item ever printed is a legendary at +7 in the waist slot, which has long been considered one of the more powerful slots.

This is a convincing argument.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I’m concerned about the fast power creep this gives, and the disproportionate benefit it gives to melee monks and rangers who already are whooping the other melee classes. Rangers and Monks are going to push further ahead the more and more stackable STR that gets made.


It gives all melee classes +2 or 3 to hit, and realistically +3 or 4 to damage (from thebset bonus) if not now then in 2 years when the Cavadar transmute is done.


So, the whole concern is around STR for me.

I’d be perfectly fine if it were +4 str or +6 dex or +6 con - to me that’s not too powerful.

I would be 100% fine with this solution, especially if it came with a nerf to the base str kilt (which I grant you seems to be the source of the problem).

In fact I'll go so far as to say this is now my preferred solution as it takes nothing away from the old kilts and no one has a str kilt yet so we can do what we like with those.

So I assume I am alone in this feeling but the Iktomi’s Shaper's Necklace seems REALLY weak as a legendary token in my opinion. It feels a lot more like a relic level token at the legendary level and that the legendary level should add some other benefit. At the neck slot it's a lot to sacrifice given all the other strong items for that slot to gain a damage resistance bonus and access to elemental type for damage, which doesn't apply to spells cast in that form. It's nice for Druids who want to do shapeshifting, it's a cool item for a shifter Druid. Personally I have never encountered a single player who plays a shapeshifter Druid. I assume there are some but most I encounter are spell swapped pure damage or hybird healer caster. Am I just not encountering many druids?

I don't really care much about Kilt. I think it's fine. But I am more looking at the lute. I mean it gives +1/+1 Going up to a +2/+2 which and that reroll once per game. But that seems like a whole lot to dump. When I already get a +2 to damage with the UR version. It just seems, like to gain a +2 to hit and then a reroll just for the bard. I don't think what it currently does justifies how much it is going to cost to make.