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TOPIC: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con)

Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #97

Incognito wrote: In fact, I felt so bad for all the token buyers out there that I deliberately shoe-horned desert effects into Grind just so that some of those tokens would have a use! (Hat of Shade anyone? Sandstorm Cloak? Shoes of Sandwalking? Charm of the Mirage?). ::sighs::


This used to bug me a little, but then I made peace with it in the following manner: I now just view these tokes as establishing storyline and hints/expectations for players about what they might encounter.

E.g. your adventuring party is entering a desert region, you stop by the local bazaar, and this is what they have on offer.

It doesn't bug me at all any longer, and I suspect for most of the casual / first time players they don't notice it at all. In fact, I think this kind of themeing enhances the experience for casual players, and gives players a sense of progression over a few years as they learn which things matter (saves and AC), and which things don't (any of the umpteen feather fall effects).

For example, I have absolutely no expectation that the Belt of Climbing, Boots of Lava Walking, Cap of the Miner, Charm of Sweet Air, Gloak of the Bat, Cowl of Darkness, Gloves of Rope Climbing, Grappling Hook, Large Sack, Lenses of the Raider, Marking Chalk, Potion Spiderfoot, Shoes of Spiderfoot will be of any use. They certainly could be, especially the gear, and I would be fine if they did, but I think they are achieving their objective of establishing the setting for the adventuring party in the coaching room by their mere existence.

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Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #98

Incognito wrote:
The main problem in this case is the Monk, who is immune to non-magical missile attacks. Unfortunately the Gloves of Deflection are indirectly hurt by attempts to make things challenging for the Monk.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but is this really a problem? By this a do not mean "does this really occur?" I mean "So one player in 10 is immune to one attack type - what's the problem?"

It seems like the way to go here is either to design the monster with multiple attack types so they are never "stumped" in their ability to interact with a given player (although, if a player has really gone out of their way to stump the monster, e.g. Cloak of Elvenkind, Ioun Stone Violet Prism, Gloves of Deflection, Cloak of Shadowskin, Charm of Brooching, Hat of Escape, Viper Strike Shirt, Dirtdazzy's Boots of Skipping, Supreme Ring of Elemental Command, Earcuff of the Wind, Amulet of the Wind - I say chuckle and let them bask in their invulnerability).

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Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #99

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Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote: In fact, I felt so bad for all the token buyers out there that I deliberately shoe-horned desert effects into Grind just so that some of those tokens would have a use! (Hat of Shade anyone? Sandstorm Cloak? Shoes of Sandwalking? Charm of the Mirage?). ::sighs::


This used to bug me a little, but then I made peace with it in the following manner: I now just view these tokes as establishing storyline and hints/expectations for players about what they might encounter.

E.g. your adventuring party is entering a desert region, you stop by the local bazaar, and this is what they have on offer.

It doesn't bug me at all any longer, and I suspect for most of the casual / first time players they don't notice it at all. In fact, I think this kind of themeing enhances the experience for casual players, and gives players a sense of progression over a few years as they learn which things matter (saves and AC), and which things don't (any of the umpteen feather fall effects).

For example, I have absolutely no expectation that the Belt of Climbing, Boots of Lava Walking, Cap of the Miner, Charm of Sweet Air, Gloak of the Bat, Cowl of Darkness, Gloves of Rope Climbing, Grappling Hook, Large Sack, Lenses of the Raider, Marking Chalk, Potion Spiderfoot, Shoes of Spiderfoot will be of any use. They certainly could be, especially the gear, and I would be fine if they did, but I think they are achieving their objective of establishing the setting for the adventuring party in the coaching room by their mere existence.


Just for the record the boots of lava walking came up in the WYC dungeon. In general though I think its important to make sure the common effects come up in some small way since a lot of one pack per year players equip them. Letting them feel like their gear matters is a good way to keep them coming back.
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Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #100

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote:
The main problem in this case is the Monk, who is immune to non-magical missile attacks. Unfortunately the Gloves of Deflection are indirectly hurt by attempts to make things challenging for the Monk.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but is this really a problem? By this a do not mean "does this really occur?" I mean "So one player in 10 is immune to one attack type - what's the problem?"

It seems like the way to go here is either to design the monster with multiple attack types so they are never "stumped" in their ability to interact with a given player (although, if a player has really gone out of their way to stump the monster, e.g. Cloak of Elvenkind, Ioun Stone Violet Prism, Gloves of Deflection, Cloak of Shadowskin, Charm of Brooching, Hat of Escape, Viper Strike Shirt, Dirtdazzy's Boots of Skipping, Supreme Ring of Elemental Command, Earcuff of the Wind, Amulet of the Wind - I say chuckle and let them bask in their invulnerability).


If someone wants to walk through the dungeon and do nothing, they should just fall on a grenade in the first room. Cloak of Elvenkind only works if you do nothing in the room. Hat of Escape works until the monster makes one successful roll and there is a 45% chance of that happening. Melee damage prevention is nice, but I think getting attacked three times in one round may be enough to nick you a bit.

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Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #101

balthasar wrote: Cloak of Elvenkind only works if you do nothing in the room.


It works until you do something in a room - an important distinction from only working if you do nothing. In particular, you will not be hit during a surprise round or in the first round of combat if the monster wins initiative.

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Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #102

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balthasar wrote: If someone wants to walk through the dungeon and do nothing, they should just fall on a grenade in the first room.


Hey - I object to that comment.

Some folks (shockingly) don't like combat. Maybe they got TPK'd after spending $40 of their precious GenCon money on their first run.... Maybe they're pro-Monster-Rights and would prefer to talk to adversaries... maybe they have a traumatic past and the idea of being hit (virtually or otherwise) terrifies them. I don't know. The thing is, True Dungeon has *great* puzzles, and there's a lot of people who play it for the mensa-level games (with bonus 12-minute countdown timer).

As forumites and tokenaholics, we tend to focus on the combat aspect of TD because that's something we can prepare for ahead of time, but combat is only a part of the whole experience. I think we should allow people to gear up the way they like, and respect their playing styles, rather than imply that you need to play our way, or go home.
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Last edit: by Raven.

Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #103

Raven wrote:

balthasar wrote: If someone wants to walk through the dungeon and do nothing, they should just fall on a grenade in the first room.


Hey - I object to that comment.

Some folks (shockingly) don't like combat. Maybe they got TPK'd after spending $40 of their precious GenCon money on their first run.... Maybe they're pro-Monster-Rights and would prefer to talk to adversaries... maybe they have a traumatic past and the idea of being hit (virtually or otherwise) terrifies them. I don't know. The thing is, True Dungeon has *great* puzzles, and there's a lot of people who play it for the mensa-level games (with bonus 12-minute countdown timer).

As forumites and tokenaholics, we tend to focus on the combat aspect of TD because that's something we can prepare for ahead of time, but combat is only a part of the whole experience. I think we should allow people to gear up the way they like, and respect their playing styles, rather than imply that you need to play our way, or go home.


I am okay with puzzle rooms. The build I was razzing was one that wouldn't even let you help in puzzle without negating some of the tokens someone was using.

In no way was I saying they shouldn't do that. They are welcome to go sight seeing, just seems like it could be a little underwhelming.

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Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #104

After encountering the medusa on normal last year and being nearly killed in one hit before I even did anything in the room - not turned to stone, just flat out hit and enough damage to lay me out with only one hit point thanks to a common item negating one point of poison damage - I am in complete support if someone wants to assemble and run the above build.

Caution allows one to react better to the situation at hand instead of being straight up killed without being able to do a thing about it. As a second-year bard that has a better understanding of what to expect, well, I'm expecting the monsters to be gunning for me out the gate. Being nigh invulnerable has its appeal to me this year, but I'm also interested in sliding a puck this year.

I'm eyeing the Cloak of Shadowskin and Charm of Broaching, but there is only so much I can do with my limited funds.

I agree with Raven. If someone wants to not get smacked around and just enjoy the dungeon more on their terms than by the DM's, more power to them.
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Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #105

Cloak of Shadowskin is awesome, as long as I remember I am wearing one, lol. Went through half a Grind at WYC until I remembered. Cloak of Elvenkind is crazy limiting, as you can't talk, move, or do bard stuff.

tokendb.com/token/cloak-of-elvenkind/

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Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #106

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I assume you understand my point was that bardsong has NO EFFECT on spellcasting right?

Sounds like (sorry for the pun) you are just using the wrong types of instruments! :P

Spellcasters can still benefit from bardsong with:

- Lyre of Lore (may reveal immunities and weaknesses that help wizards figure out which energy types to use)

- Lyre of Luck (+1 to saves)

- Lute of Muting (-2 sonic damage)

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Last edit: by Incognito.

Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #107

Matthew Hayward wrote: For example, I have absolutely no expectation that the Belt of Climbing, Boots of Lava Walking, Cap of the Miner, Charm of Sweet Air, Gloak of the Bat, Cowl of Darkness, Gloves of Rope Climbing, Grappling Hook, Large Sack, Lenses of the Raider, Marking Chalk, Potion Spiderfoot, Shoes of Spiderfoot will be of any use. They certainly could be, especially the gear, and I would be fine if they did, but I think they are achieving their objective of establishing the setting for the adventuring party in the coaching room by their mere existence.

Well, for WYC Grind there were uses for:

Boots of Lava Walking
Cap of the Miner
Cloak of the Bat
Gloves of Rope Climbing
Grappling Hook

and I had plans (which weren't implemented) for the Charm of Sweet Air.

Graven wrote: Eric,
Can you elaborate more on some of the creative uses for tokens that you secretly came up with, but no one stumbled across?

I think that would be really interesting.

Thanks.


For WYC:

The lava separating the two sides could be crossed if you swam across (causing significant fire damage). But there were other ways around it:

Boots of Lava Walking would let you cross in one turn without taking any damage. Unsurprisingly, no one wore the boots.

Armor of the Efreeti would also negate any damage from crossing the lava.

There were also ways for players to use a Grappling Hook and Rope to cross, though once that was in place, it would require two turns to get across. If someone was using the Gloves of Rope Climbing I would let them cross in just one turn. There were maybe two groups that used rope (I think Kent's group and binia's group did). No one used Gloves of Rope Climbing though.

You could also potentially use a Scroll/Potion of Endure Elements, though smart players would first check with a Detect Magic spell first. No one tried this, which is a little surprising since last year (2014 GenCon) people actually did bring Scrolls of Endure Elements. The closest thing was George, who was the only Druid to cast his Protection from Energy spell (and later quaffed a Potion of Fire Resistance).

Multiple monsters had minor fire retribution damage. There were a couple of players who were protected with Shirts of Shielding though usually fire damage reduction was enough to make the retribution damage negligible.

Players were surprised at the start, causing them to lose initiative unless they were immune to surprise (Earcuff of the Wind, Goggles of Serpent Sight, Footman Cap, Ring of the Eye, Twolf's Helm of the Wild, Psychic Tier 3 ESP).

The Efreeti had an Enlarge spell (which would have interacted with an Ioun Stone Black Pearl) but I never bothered casting it.

The Yuan-ti had a psionic blast (for the Ioun Stone Amethyst Ovoid) which is always used. Though the final boss also had allowances to use a psionic blast I never used it for the final battle.

The Spirit Naga and Medusa had gaze attacks. Both could also charm, poison, cause disease, and curse.

The Naga had defensive spells to make it incorporeal (for Psychic Tier 4 Planar Vision) or displace it (Lenses of Clear Sight).

There were effects to counter both wood and metal weapons. The Naga and Medusa had Sticks to Snakes spells which would render wood weapons useless for that combat. The Magma Elemental could increase the heat in the area which would cause cumulative damage to those using metal weapons or metal armor. Furthermore, the Medusa could Shatter items as well. These effects could have been avoided with the Necklace of the Ash, Moon Runestone, and (for the Magma Elemental) Tinkerer's Gloves, but no one used any of these tokens.

If the Medusa was unmuted when she died, she would have a death scream that would shatter potions that were unprotected by an Alchemist Pouch/Purse (most players had Purses), which was a throwback to an effect I had back in 2010. It would also result in falling stalactites (this was Raven's idea) which could only be prevented by a Cap of the Miner or Earcuff of Abjuration. No one used any of those.

The Medusa, Fire Snake, and final boss had attacks that could cause falling damage (Ring/Scroll/Potion of Feather Fall, Cloak of the Bat, Cloak of Gliding, Psychic Tier 2 Control Mass). No one wore Rings or Cloaks. There were maybe 2 Potions used and a few people used their psychic power here.

Those using an Ioun Stone Iridescent Spindle got a bonus to save against attacks from the Smoke Elemental. A few players were using the Ioun Stone.

So hopefully that gives you an idea of some of the token effects that were available in the most recent Grind. B)

Due to the demographics of TD attendees at Who's Yer Con, Grind players tended to be better equipped than average, so most players had better options than equipping corner-case tokens. This is one of those cases where newer players (who don't have anything else in that slot) would have benefited more from this adventure design.

Since the AoW and Eldritch Runestone effects were designed to boost psychic powers, I had provisions/uses for every psychic power except Tier 1 (Walk on Water). However, most players forgot to use their psychic power.

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Last edit: by Incognito.

Re: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con) 8 years 10 months ago #108

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm not trying to be argumentative, but is this really a problem? By this a do not mean "does this really occur?" I mean "So one player in 10 is immune to one attack type - what's the problem?"

Well, look at it another way. Go the Monk forum and see how several of the Monk players are frothing mad about monsters who are immune to blunt weapons.... :P

balthasar wrote:

Hey - I object to that comment.

Some folks (shockingly) don't like combat. Maybe they got TPK'd after spending $40 of their precious GenCon money on their first run.... Maybe they're pro-Monster-Rights and would prefer to talk to adversaries... maybe they have a traumatic past and the idea of being hit (virtually or otherwise) terrifies them. I don't know. The thing is, True Dungeon has *great* puzzles, and there's a lot of people who play it for the mensa-level games (with bonus 12-minute countdown timer).

As forumites and tokenaholics, we tend to focus on the combat aspect of TD because that's something we can prepare for ahead of time, but combat is only a part of the whole experience. I think we should allow people to gear up the way they like, and respect their playing styles, rather than imply that you need to play our way, or go home.


I am okay with puzzle rooms. The build I was razzing was one that wouldn't even let you help in puzzle without negating some of the tokens someone was using.

In no way was I saying they shouldn't do that. They are welcome to go sight seeing, just seems like it could be a little underwhelming.

One of the interesting things about the Cloak of Elvenkind and especially the Hat of Escape and Ring of Sanctuary is that they disproportionately shift the burden on to the other players (since they redirect attacks directly or indirectly).

It is one thing if the party plans this in advance. It can be more problematic (morally) if some stranger simply decides to burden you with all the monster attacks. In addition, the Hat of Escape and Ring of Sanctuary also take up a lot of time by requiring the DM to roll extra d20's.

If you are really worried about dying in combat (especially at lower levels) you are better off just focusing on AC and saves so you don't die. Which probably means you don't have the + hit/damage to kill the monster so you will likely time out, but at least you won't "die."

Similarly, at a party level, you could go with 9 players wearing Cloaks of Elvenkind and standing around, while the Paladin or Fighter does a build maximizing AC and just stands there (or fights the monster one on one, probably unable to kill it), and you time out.

If that is the way players who hate combat really want to play through a dungeon that is their prerogative, but they are missing out on part of the TD experience!

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