TOPIC: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con)

Incognito wrote: Okay now that we've had the time to settle down from WYC, I wanted to get feedback on a few things:


#1. What are people's thoughts of the new difficulty level (the "New Nightmare")?

Too hot, too cold, or just right?

Although WYC TD'ers are not representative of the random, average player, it is interesting to note that 7 out of 8 of the runs were all on the new Nightmare setting.

Felt just right to me.

Incognito wrote: And though there were no takers for the Epic level (equivalent to the Old Nightmare), it does sound like Kirk is planning on doing an Epic Grind at GenCon.

Yeah, you'll finally get to kill me.

Incognito wrote: #2. What do people think of the Psychic Powers mechanic?

Only a few players used an Amulet of Wonder to increase their psychic potential. I don't recall anyone using an Eldritch Runestone (though Raven would know better since she did the coaching).

But even though we marked the psychic column for players and a fair number of players had the ability, it seems like the vast majority of them forgot to use their psychic power (even the free 4 point healing).

Thoughts?

I think I successfully remember any of my 1/game powers about 10% of the time I unfortunately expect that trend is likely to continue with the psychic powers. (But I can dream!)

Incognito wrote: #3. We are making steady progress towards getting players to utilize the various Character building tools so that they have their stats (and equipment lists) ready for the event.

Since there are a few different tools available, I am curious which one(s) people prefer and why they like that one over the others.

So what are the best ones from a player's point of view?

The excel sheet wins hand down, if I'm actually at a desktop machine. Love the ability to build up an entire party (or build and print a party of my possible builds for Grind or Dungeon so I have them quickly available for PUGs).

The iOS app is awesome for when I'm lazing about on my couch, and just want to play around with some build possibilities on my iPad. Two things that would make it more awesome: ability to build a party, and ability to import (export/import through dropbox?).

But since my phone is Android, and my phone is what I actually carry with me, the android app is awesome for when I'm actually at WYC and need to throw a build together on the fly. The same things that would make the iOS app more awesome also apply here.

The only one I don't tend to use very much is the character builder here on the website, i think it has been overshadowed by the other options.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Honestly I was terribly disappointed at how bad the psychic powers are. They don't stack, it's only 1 per run and they mimic uncommon and rare tokens even at the 7 stack level.

As a player, I agree that the psychic powers seem a bit on the weak side.

However, the main advantage seems to be flexibility. Due to the no swapping rule (other than for weapons/shields/instruments), most non-newbies will not be wasting slots on a lot of these uncommon and rare tokens.

For example, I have never seen a non-newbie decide to equip with the uncommon Boots of Water Walking (Tier 1 Adjust Mass).

And it is quite rare for veteran players to bother equipping with a feather fall effect (Ring of Feather, Cloak of Gliding, Cloak of the Bat) (Tier 2 Control Mass). Even during the WYC Grind, I think I only saw a total of 2 or 3 Potions of Feather Fall used (and no scrolls).

During WYC Grind, a player who chose to use the Boots of Lava Walking would have really benefited. But no one actually equipped with it. Which is understandable since you'd be playing environmental roulette by committing your foot spot on it (or the Boots of Water Walking or the Boots of Snow Walking or the Boots of the Leopard or the Boots of the Raider or the Shoes of Sand Walking or the Shoes of Spiderfoot).

So while the effect is already present on uncommon/rare tokens, most of those are not practicable for normal dungeon use.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Incognito wrote: #1. What are people's thoughts of the new difficulty level (the "New Nightmare")?

Too hot, too cold, or just right?

I think it was "just right". All of my grinds were NM and had about a 50-75% survival rate (even with some Mystic Mushrooms). But none of my groups had fully maxed-out builds all around. I'd say on average we had one Legendary per person and 5-10 URs per person. That feels like a good equipment level for a NM Grind group to me.

Incognito wrote: And though there were no takers for the Epic level (equivalent to the Old Nightmare), it does sound like Kirk is planning on doing an Epic Grind at GenCon.

Definitely. I have 8 out of 10 slots filled for the run. I think Epic should be appropriate for a group who has 90%+ optimal builds for their classes and that is what we'll have.

BTW: For the new Epic (old Nightmare), I strongly suggest that players bring a healthy stash of consumables, since monster stats at that level do factor in bonuses from consumables.

So you might want to suggest to each of your players to bring a:

1. A bunch of healing
2. A couple of resurrection tokens
3. Ammo for ranged players (at Epic, you should really be using an ammo each attack)
4. A variety of scrolls for the spellcasters
5. Various utility potions just in case (this WYC Grind only a single common Potion of Fire Resistance was used but it was tremendously helpful!)

Incognito wrote:
And secondarily, what are the best ones from a coach's point of view?

A totally preprinted party card is best, so the spreadsheet gives me that. Of course that only works for preplanned groups.

For PUGs, the app is better. Class choices can change and token loaning is common so builds change as well.

Incognito wrote: Okay now that we've had the time to settle down from WYC, I wanted to get feedback on a few things:


#1. What are people's thoughts of the new difficulty level (the "New Nightmare")?

Too hot, too cold, or just right?

Although WYC TD'ers are not representative of the random, average player, it is interesting to note that 7 out of 8 of the runs were all on the new Nightmare setting.

And though there were no takers for the Epic level (equivalent to the Old Nightmare), it does sound like Kirk is planning on doing an Epic Grind at GenCon.


#2. What do people think of the Psychic Powers mechanic?

Only a few players used an Amulet of Wonder to increase their psychic potential. I don't recall anyone using an Eldritch Runestone (though Raven would know better since she did the coaching).

But even though we marked the psychic column for players and a fair number of players had the ability, it seems like the vast majority of them forgot to use their psychic power (even the free 4 point healing).

Thoughts?


#3. We are making steady progress towards getting players to utilize the various Character building tools so that they have their stats (and equipment lists) ready for the event.

Since there are a few different tools available, I am curious which one(s) people prefer and why they like that one over the others.

So what are the best ones from a player's point of view?

And secondarily, what are the best ones from a coach's point of view?

1. nightmare difficulty seemed just right. some monsters can be extremely brutal when targeting a single person, but I know in my situation at the end of the grind it was more of a party tactic issue than being picked on (I might actually start requesting the paladin to guard the ranger...also, that paladin ability really needs to be fixed to use once per combat instead of only beginning of combat).

the one 'complaint' I have has to do with side-stepping token abilities. I didn't have any issue at the time when the magma being flung couldn't be deflected with gloves of deflection, but the trend bothers me...
when a player equips TOKEN that interacts with X.
X happens one time in the dungeon/grind.
designer/DM decides that TOKEN is too powerful in this instance and rules that it doesn't apply to X this time.

I have a problem with this scenario. sure, one time rulings that allow an ability to get around tokens are understandable. but when the token is extremely narrow in what it does, and the only time it comes up players are told that it doesn't work, that is very frustrating. I feel like there should either be an intentional inclusion of a second instance where the token DOES work, or just reward the player for equipping such a narrow token...OR be up front and warn players with a list of tokens that will not work as expected due to balance reasons so we can equip something else.

I read from your summary that the gloves would have worked on lower difficulties, and that actually annoyed me as well. the tokens we use are a major part of enabling us to take on the higher difficulties, if the nightmare monsters are going to side-step all my token abilities maybe I should sell off half my tokens and just play hardcore...?

ok, after all that, I feel the need to say: Grind was amazing! you do a wonderful job with it and I always usually have a great time. when I go on about issues such as above, that is a small thing overall, I just might have strong opinions about that small thing and like to get my point across and hopefully help make a better event as a result.

2. psychic powers kinda suck. I know part of that is that had high hopes for them; since they were teased without any details, we all had lots of speculation. and then it was announced that no matter how much you had, it was just a once/dungeon utility ability. and then, since I wasn't planning on having psychic powers at all this year, I hadn't thought about it. I did get an ovoid stone as a random UR, so I guess I will have to check out my options.

3. amorgen's spreadsheet is amazing. I still prefer it, but there are issues for me now that my printer doesn't work. I just downloaded the android character builder and I am liking it so far. not as great for looking at the build, token options, and stats; but that is just due to the small screen. the TD website character builder: I haven't used in a few years, it always lagged behind amorgen's in getting new tokens and I remember there being bugs that didn't get fixed quickly.

I will probably continue to use amorgen's for creating builds. then put them into my android character builder to take to gencon/wyc. which then allows me to make last minute changes, if needed.

You make good points.

It's only going to lead to player frustration to power creep the high level players up each year by substantial amounts, then tell them in the games that they are too powerful so the creep tokens they just bought this year don't work.

I also agree that telling players the effects would have worked at lower difficulty levels (or not telling them and letting them find out by talking to others) is frustrating, and leads high level players to conclude they would be better off not buying expensive tokens and playing on lower difficulty levels.

The psychic powers were underwhelming.

I see the bigger picture of this being that the creep is needed to keep token sales up but the game is not prepared for the effects that were included with the new year of token powers. Well, one of these will eventually have to snap.

I also have to admit that I had multiple powers and abilities in my token set that I forgot to use. There are just too many to keep straight for someone who can't devote enough time to token kinetics. It seems like the sheets that list the powers of the players need to be evolved so that all of the powers and abilities can be summarized in one place and read at a glance.

I'm ok with Psychic powers not being such a big deal. I'd be unhappy if they were an overpowered mess.

But I wouldnt call them useless when you need that psychic immunity to ward off a mind flayer. I am sure anticipating seeing one at least this year.

Disbeeleaf wrote: I also agree that telling players the effects would have worked at lower difficulty levels (or not telling them and letting them find out by talking to others) is frustrating, and leads high level players to conclude they would be better off not buying expensive tokens and playing on lower difficulty levels.

I think such restrictions are unnecessary and here is why. The more equipped you are, the more you gave up to equip that item (if it takes a slot). So if I'm wearing Gloves of Spell Deflection then I chose NOT to wear Mithral Gauntlets. So it should really help out if it is needed IMO. So I think that all tokens should work just the same at all difficulties. Obviously -3 fire damage is more effective at Normal mode than Epic, but that's a scale issue.

Disbeeleaf wrote: the game is not prepared for the effects that were included with the new year of token powers

This may be my biggest complaint about True Dungeon, although in my experience Eric and Raven do a really good job and are great at improvising as needed. But especially in the dungeon runs (where DMs are less willing/able to improvise) as the token variety grows, more interactions need to be thought about in advance (I know, easier said than done).

Disbeeleaf wrote: I also have to admit that I had multiple powers and abilities in my token set that I forgot to use. There are just too many to keep straight for someone who can't devote enough time to token kinetics. It seems like the sheets that list the powers of the players need to be evolved so that all of the powers and abilities can be summarized in one place and read at a glance.

I print a small folded and laminated reference sheet for myself that I keep with me to remind me about all of my damage resistances, etc. Even so I'm pretty sure I forgot about my retribution damage and Cloak of Shadowskin for most of my runs.

With respect to psychic powers, I did not expect them to have overt physical manifestations.

I thought they would be more like controlling or misdirecting creatures of less or limited mental capacity.

For example, I expect things like:

low level effect - monster hesitates on attack and appears confused
low level effect - monster just looks at you funny
mid level effect - monster runs to corner of room but still fights if approached
mid level effect - monster attacks inanimate object
high level effect - monster attacks itself for a round
high level effect - monster appears to be attacking empty space

This is what I would expect from a mental attack, especially on a creature of inferior mental ability. This is also what I vaguely recall about psionics from old D&D

Incognito wrote: #1. What are people's thoughts of the new difficulty level (the "New Nightmare")?

Just right - we had a good challenge and look forward to the Epic TG run!

Incognito wrote: #2. What do people think of the Psychic Powers mechanic?

Underwhelmed but I was also underwhelmed with the Rod/Ring components until the set so I will reserve judgement until later.

Incognito wrote: #3. We are making steady progress towards getting players to utilize the various Character building tools so that they have their stats (and equipment lists) ready for the event.

Since there are a few different tools available, I am curious which one(s) people prefer and why they like that one over the others.

So what are the best ones from a player's point of view?

Can't speak to the coaches point of view but I love Amorgen's spreadsheet (both locked and unlocked for my iPad). Keep up the good work Amorgen!

Ed

I will also chime in on the Psychic Powers. I can take them or leave them, I didn't need or want them but don't mind them being here. I am glad they aren't crazy powerful so that if you don't want them then you don't need to use them.

The only reason I have the Teeth of Cavadar is to build the 7-year Eldritch Relic and hopefully get some awesome set bonus or other effects (well, I buy excessive amounts of tokens, so I'm going to have them anyways I guess). Specifically the one-time Astral event in 2021

The only reason I currently equip psychic powers is because it only takes one of my 7 Ioun Stone slots and it also protects against Psychic Blast. Eventually I'll remember to use the 4-point heal, but when to use it is tricky. Basically I'd have to heal during room #7 just in case I would have wanted to walk on water in that room. Some of the other abilities are interesting in the right situation. The trick will be remembering all of them and again saving the one use for the optimum time.

The biggest problem I have with the Psychic Power thing is that the teeth dont do anything on their own. You need to unlock your powers with an item that will be out of print long before the teeth are done. I suspect once the initial hype dies down a bit the teeth will be a lot less popular then the rod segs.