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TOPIC: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016?

Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #73

Mike Steele wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Some of these suggestions would be more appropriate in a "deluxe" re-usable player card. I'm sure many people would be more than happy to pay $5-$10 for one they could re-use that has features like glow-in-the-dark and a wheel to track HP. Spells could be tracked with a dry-erase marker (although it would be easy to wipe them off on purpose or on accident). This could be separate from the standard disposable ones. It could end up saving on cost/waste for player boards that are tossed.


I'd be worried about having spells that couldn't be permanently marked off, it would be too easy to abuse. We already saw that back when tokens like wands with boxes were marked with ink that could be rubbed off, there were numerous groups that regularly wiped the boxes clean between rooms/games, and in essence had wands with unlimited charges.


Understood, except I notice a weird combination of worries about things like this but then people don't worry about the fact that we track our own HPs and our own "once per adventure" item uses...
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Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #74

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Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #75

SageSTL wrote: On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.


With regard to whether an AC 15 slide is easier or harder for a BiS equipped Wizard as compared with a fighter, here are some numbers:

BiS Wizard bonus to spell slide: +6/7, needs a 9/8 or better slide to hit.
This +6 comes from: Lenses of Accuracy (+1), and the total DEX bonus of: Ioun Stone Quicksilver Cube (+2 DEX) and Sphere (+1 DEX), RoSP (+1 DEX), Viper Strike Belt (+3 DEX), Mithal Boots (+3 DEX) for a total of +10 DEX, or +5 to hit. This will go down by 1 next year when the boots become the Wind boots.

BiS Fighter bonus to Melee slide: ~+21, based on typical monster AC needs a:
  • ~2 or better slide to hit on Normal (Assuming 1 auto misses - otherwise this is a 1)
  • ~2 or better slide to hit on Hardcore
  • ~4 or better slide to hit on Nightmare
Typical monster ACs range from 15-19 on Normal, 17-22 on Hardcore, and 19-25 on Nightmare.

So - BiS Fighters are going to have a much easier time hitting vs monster AC than a BiS Wizard on a spell slide against a static AC of 15.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #76

SageSTL wrote: On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.


I believe any discussion around spell casting Wizard power creep should be informed by the context provided by the power level available to other classes. I think within this context it is pretty clear that Wizards lag melee sliding classes, and have fewer token options - especially at the common / uncommon / rare level.

I'm fine with that - I see no particular reason why Wizards need to be on par with Fighters with average damage per round - however I think we're not very close to a point at which we need to be concerned about Wizards reaching parity and/or overtaking fighters in combat efficacy.

Melee sliders have access to a variety of Melee hit and damage tokens at every rarity and in nearly every slot:
  • Around 20 strength enhancing tokens [link], at rarity from common to ultra rare and transmuted.
  • Runestones that add +1 to Melee damage which are generally available each year.
  • Another dozen or so melee damage or melee hit enhancing items from rare on up such as boots, bracers, charms, crowns, girdles, the might set, offhand weapons which convey bonuses, oils, rings, (and freaking powered combat armor!)
  • They also get the benefit of one third of the Wizard's level 2 spells - Bull's Strength ;)

Wizards have access to a very limited supply of tokens to enhance spell damage at the ultra rare or higher rarity:
  • Ring of Focus, Greater Ring of Focus, Resla's Ring of Supreme Focus
  • +2, +3, and +5 Staff of Focus
  • Bracelet/Charm/Gloves of the Cabal
  • Bracelets of the Zephyr don't boost spell damage, but do let you cast a second spell as a scroll (so - without any damage bonuses) in one round once per combat - but can't be worn with the Cabal set.
  • Mad Evoker's Charm - doubles the card printed spell damage (so - does not double bonuses from Rings of Focus, Staff of Focus, Cabal set) in exchange for dealing 10 damage to the Wizard - presently also occupies the head slot as the Hat of Intellect is the sole effect in the game which allows this item to be eqipped.
  • Next year Wizards will presumably get boots that boost spell damage.
In terms of damage boosters that's it: 3 rings, 1 two handed weapon, a 3 item UR set which conflicts in slotting with one of the other options (Bracelets of the Zephyr), and a Charm - all at Ultra Rare or Combo/Transmuted rarity. (UR Boots arrive next year.)

The rings conflict with the BiS desire to wear the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command for the Eldritch set bonus in order to cut through spell resistance - so equipping more than one of them has the drawback of subjecting yourself to spell resistance (or more than two if you use the neck slot for Hand of Glory).

I could get behind a general crusade to stop power creep across the board - but right now I believe the spell casting classes are getting lapped by the melee sliding classes in the power creep race to be able to defeat Orcus in one round ;).

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #77

Matthew Hayward wrote:

SageSTL wrote: On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.


I believe any discussion around spell casting Wizard power creep should be informed by the context provided by the power level available to other classes. I think within this context it is pretty clear that Wizards lag melee sliding classes, and have fewer token options - especially at the common / uncommon / rare level.

I'm fine with that - I see no particular reason why Wizards need to be on par with Fighters with average damage per round - however I think we're not very close to a point at which we need to be concerned about Wizards reaching parity and/or overtaking fighters in combat efficacy.

Melee sliders have access to a variety of Melee hit and damage tokens at every rarity and in nearly every slot:
  • Around 20 strength enhancing tokens [link], at rarity from common to ultra rare and transmuted.
  • Runestones that add +1 to Melee damage which are generally available each year.
  • Another dozen or so melee damage or melee hit enhancing items from rare on up such as boots, bracers, charms, crowns, girdles, the might set, offhand weapons which convey bonuses, oils, rings, (and freaking powered combat armor!)
  • They also get the benefit of one third of the Wizard's level 2 spells - Bull's Strength ;)

Wizards have access to a very limited supply of tokens to enhance spell damage at the ultra rare or higher rarity:
  • Ring of Focus, Greater Ring of Focus, Resla's Ring of Supreme Focus
  • +2, +3, and +5 Staff of Focus
  • Bracelet/Charm/Gloves of the Cabal
  • Bracelets of the Zephyr don't boost spell damage, but do let you cast a second spell as a scroll (so - without any damage bonuses) in one round once per combat - but can't be worn with the Cabal set.
  • Mad Evoker's Charm - doubles the card printed spell damage (so - does not double bonuses from Rings of Focus, Staff of Focus, Cabal set) in exchange for dealing 10 damage to the Wizard - presently also occupies the head slot as the Hat of Intellect is the sole effect in the game which allows this item to be eqipped.
  • Next year Wizards will presumably get boots that boost spell damage.
In terms of damage boosters that's it: 3 rings, 1 two handed weapon, a 3 item UR set which conflicts in slotting with one of the other options (Bracelets of the Zephyr), and a Charm - all at Ultra Rare or Combo/Transmuted rarity. (UR Boots arrive next year.)

The rings conflict with the BiS desire to wear the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command for the Eldritch set bonus in order to cut through spell resistance - so equipping more than one of them has the drawback of subjecting yourself to spell resistance (or more than two if you use the neck slot for Hand of Glory).

I could get behind a general crusade to stop power creep across the board - but right now I believe the spell casting classes are getting lapped by the melee sliding classes in the power creep race to be able to defeat Orcus in one round ;).


I agree with Sage, an unlimited use damage spell for Wizards could easily be turned into a nearly automatic 20 points of damage ever turn, which seems excessive to me. It also really diminishes the value of scroll and wand tokens that deal damage. I think it's best that there is a limited amount of damage spells, and when/if those are used up, Wizards can turn to scrolls and wands to deal damage or wade into melee battle (at which they can be nearly as good at as the combat classes).

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Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #78

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Matthew Hayward wrote:

SageSTL wrote: On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.


With regard to whether an AC 15 slide is easier or harder for a BiS equipped Wizard as compared with a fighter, here are some numbers:

BiS Wizard bonus to spell slide: +6/7, needs a 9/8 or better slide to hit.
This +6 comes from: Lenses of Accuracy (+1), and the total DEX bonus of: Ioun Stone Quicksilver Cube (+2 DEX) and Sphere (+1 DEX), RoSP (+1 DEX), Viper Strike Belt (+3 DEX), Mithal Boots (+3 DEX) for a total of +10 DEX, or +5 to hit. This will go down by 1 next year when the boots become the Wind boots.

BiS Fighter bonus to Melee slide: ~+21, based on typical monster AC needs a:
  • ~2 or better slide to hit on Normal (Assuming 1 auto misses - otherwise this is a 1)
  • ~2 or better slide to hit on Hardcore
  • ~4 or better slide to hit on Nightmare
Typical monster ACs range from 15-19 on Normal, 17-22 on Hardcore, and 19-25 on Nightmare.

So - BiS Fighters are going to have a much easier time hitting vs monster AC than a BiS Wizard on a spell slide against a static AC of 15.


Don't forget Ring of Wizardry for +2 to hit on sliding spells.
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Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #79

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Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

SageSTL wrote: On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.


I believe any discussion around spell casting Wizard power creep should be informed by the context provided by the power level available to other classes. I think within this context it is pretty clear that Wizards lag melee sliding classes, and have fewer token options - especially at the common / uncommon / rare level.

I'm fine with that - I see no particular reason why Wizards need to be on par with Fighters with average damage per round - however I think we're not very close to a point at which we need to be concerned about Wizards reaching parity and/or overtaking fighters in combat efficacy.

Melee sliders have access to a variety of Melee hit and damage tokens at every rarity and in nearly every slot:
  • Around 20 strength enhancing tokens [link], at rarity from common to ultra rare and transmuted.
  • Runestones that add +1 to Melee damage which are generally available each year.
  • Another dozen or so melee damage or melee hit enhancing items from rare on up such as boots, bracers, charms, crowns, girdles, the might set, offhand weapons which convey bonuses, oils, rings, (and freaking powered combat armor!)
  • They also get the benefit of one third of the Wizard's level 2 spells - Bull's Strength ;)

Wizards have access to a very limited supply of tokens to enhance spell damage at the ultra rare or higher rarity:
  • Ring of Focus, Greater Ring of Focus, Resla's Ring of Supreme Focus
  • +2, +3, and +5 Staff of Focus
  • Bracelet/Charm/Gloves of the Cabal
  • Bracelets of the Zephyr don't boost spell damage, but do let you cast a second spell as a scroll (so - without any damage bonuses) in one round once per combat - but can't be worn with the Cabal set.
  • Mad Evoker's Charm - doubles the card printed spell damage (so - does not double bonuses from Rings of Focus, Staff of Focus, Cabal set) in exchange for dealing 10 damage to the Wizard - presently also occupies the head slot as the Hat of Intellect is the sole effect in the game which allows this item to be eqipped.
  • Next year Wizards will presumably get boots that boost spell damage.
In terms of damage boosters that's it: 3 rings, 1 two handed weapon, a 3 item UR set which conflicts in slotting with one of the other options (Bracelets of the Zephyr), and a Charm - all at Ultra Rare or Combo/Transmuted rarity. (UR Boots arrive next year.)

The rings conflict with the BiS desire to wear the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command for the Eldritch set bonus in order to cut through spell resistance - so equipping more than one of them has the drawback of subjecting yourself to spell resistance (or more than two if you use the neck slot for Hand of Glory).

I could get behind a general crusade to stop power creep across the board - but right now I believe the spell casting classes are getting lapped by the melee sliding classes in the power creep race to be able to defeat Orcus in one round ;).


I agree with Sage, an unlimited use damage spell for Wizards could easily be turned into a nearly automatic 20 points of damage ever turn, which seems excessive to me. It also really diminishes the value of scroll and wand tokens that deal damage. I think it's best that there is a limited amount of damage spells, and when/if those are used up, Wizards can turn to scrolls and wands to deal damage or wade into melee battle (at which they can be nearly as good at as the combat classes).


I understand the arguments on both sides of this issue. It's difficult to figure out which would be better, since the target audiences are so different. An inexhaustible cantrip (2-3 damage, say) would be very helpful for poorly equipped starter wizards who run out of their spells, and they would have little need for it to be cast as a spell versus a scroll. A purple wizard, OTOH, wouldn't have much use for it if it were cast as a scroll.
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Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #80

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

SageSTL wrote: On the wizard discussion--if we are talking about BIS comparisons, you have to think about the current and future tokens that modify spells. If a wizard with best in slot tokens has an unlimited 1-2 point auto hit spell, it can/will be modified by:

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus: +5 damage
Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus: +5 damage
Boots of the Four Winds (2016): + 5 damage
Mad Evoker's Charm: +1 damage (although I can't see this being used, including for discussion's sake)

So--that's upgrades a 1-2 point spell into a 16-18 point spell with modifiers, not taking into consideration any future creep. Even taking a slide into account (if it weren't auto-hit), an AC 15 hit for a slide spell is going to be easier than almost any other melee or ranged AC that will need to be hit.


I believe any discussion around spell casting Wizard power creep should be informed by the context provided by the power level available to other classes. I think within this context it is pretty clear that Wizards lag melee sliding classes, and have fewer token options - especially at the common / uncommon / rare level.

I'm fine with that - I see no particular reason why Wizards need to be on par with Fighters with average damage per round - however I think we're not very close to a point at which we need to be concerned about Wizards reaching parity and/or overtaking fighters in combat efficacy.

Melee sliders have access to a variety of Melee hit and damage tokens at every rarity and in nearly every slot:
  • Around 20 strength enhancing tokens [link], at rarity from common to ultra rare and transmuted.
  • Runestones that add +1 to Melee damage which are generally available each year.
  • Another dozen or so melee damage or melee hit enhancing items from rare on up such as boots, bracers, charms, crowns, girdles, the might set, offhand weapons which convey bonuses, oils, rings, (and freaking powered combat armor!)
  • They also get the benefit of one third of the Wizard's level 2 spells - Bull's Strength ;)

Wizards have access to a very limited supply of tokens to enhance spell damage at the ultra rare or higher rarity:
  • Ring of Focus, Greater Ring of Focus, Resla's Ring of Supreme Focus
  • +2, +3, and +5 Staff of Focus
  • Bracelet/Charm/Gloves of the Cabal
  • Bracelets of the Zephyr don't boost spell damage, but do let you cast a second spell as a scroll (so - without any damage bonuses) in one round once per combat - but can't be worn with the Cabal set.
  • Mad Evoker's Charm - doubles the card printed spell damage (so - does not double bonuses from Rings of Focus, Staff of Focus, Cabal set) in exchange for dealing 10 damage to the Wizard - presently also occupies the head slot as the Hat of Intellect is the sole effect in the game which allows this item to be eqipped.
  • Next year Wizards will presumably get boots that boost spell damage.
In terms of damage boosters that's it: 3 rings, 1 two handed weapon, a 3 item UR set which conflicts in slotting with one of the other options (Bracelets of the Zephyr), and a Charm - all at Ultra Rare or Combo/Transmuted rarity. (UR Boots arrive next year.)

The rings conflict with the BiS desire to wear the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command for the Eldritch set bonus in order to cut through spell resistance - so equipping more than one of them has the drawback of subjecting yourself to spell resistance (or more than two if you use the neck slot for Hand of Glory).

I could get behind a general crusade to stop power creep across the board - but right now I believe the spell casting classes are getting lapped by the melee sliding classes in the power creep race to be able to defeat Orcus in one round ;).


I agree with Sage, an unlimited use damage spell for Wizards could easily be turned into a nearly automatic 20 points of damage ever turn, which seems excessive to me. It also really diminishes the value of scroll and wand tokens that deal damage. I think it's best that there is a limited amount of damage spells, and when/if those are used up, Wizards can turn to scrolls and wands to deal damage or wade into melee battle (at which they can be nearly as good at as the combat classes).


I understand the arguments on both sides of this issue. It's difficult to figure out which would be better, since the target audiences are so different. An inexhaustible cantrip (2-3 damage, say) would be very helpful for poorly equipped starter wizards who run out of their spells, and they would have little need for it to be cast as a spell versus a scroll. A purple wizard, OTOH, wouldn't have much use for it if it were cast as a scroll.


Brian, I agree. The power gap between players with few tokens and those with best in class tokens is getting so large that it is increasingly difficult to design tokens that work appropriately for both. It is pretty astonishing really how powerful both melee and spell-casters can be now with best-in-class tokens.

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Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #81

Mike Steele wrote: I agree with Sage, an unlimited use damage spell for Wizards could easily be turned into a nearly automatic 20 points of damage ever turn, which seems excessive to me. It also really diminishes the value of scroll and wand tokens that deal damage. I think it's best that there is a limited amount of damage spells, and when/if those are used up, Wizards can turn to scrolls and wands to deal damage or wade into melee battle (at which they can be nearly as good at as the combat classes).


I don't necessarily disagree that having BiS characters have inexhaustible, auto-hit 20 points of damage is a good thing.

However I think worrying about this when BiS Rangers and Monks already hit for >60 points a turn on slides of 2+, and BiS Fighters hit for >35 points a turn on slides of 2+ is odd.

It's true that this ability (as a spell or not) devalues scrolls and wands.

A BiS spell casting Wizard has locked up these slots with things that don't enhance melee combat:
  • Head
  • Wrists
  • Gloves
  • All rings
  • 3 charms
  • In 2016, boots
So they'll be down a Crown of Might, Bracers of Fire/Frost, Gloves of the Brute/Mithral Gauntlets, Ring of Frost, Boots of Butt Kicking relative to a BiS Melee build. Because they are going to want to equip more than 3 charms (Charm of Avarice, and/or Wil's Dragon heart so they can't be one-shot so easily), their neck slot will be Charm Necklace, not Stu-Pendous Pendant. A BiS casting Wizard who wades into melee is doing so at around +15 to hit and around 22 damage, as compared with around +21 to hit and 36 damage for a Fighter.

Such a Wizard will have an AC of around 21 and thus be hittable by a monster roll of roughly 12/8/4 on normal/hardcore/nightmare.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #82

Mike Steele wrote: It is pretty astonishing really how powerful both melee and spell-casters can be now with best-in-class tokens.


True dat.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #83

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It is pretty astonishing really how powerful both melee and spell-casters can be now with best-in-class tokens.


True dat.


I actually have no desire to get our group anywhere near the best in class numbers. I think we have hit a really good sweet spot on difficulty with our current token builds and Hardcore level. If you have a group entirely made up of best-in-slot characters, I'm not sure how even the Nightmare level of combat difficulty is any challenge. Perhaps it is time for a difficulty level specifically designed to be challenging for best in slot groups.

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Re: What Changes To Make on Character Cards in 2016? 9 years 4 months ago #84

2016 will also be introducing the Eldritch transmute for the Boots of XXX Winds line, so a BiS Wizard will get damage bonuses to both spell casting as well as melee.

Its a small nit-pick, which likely doesn't change anything, but... *shrug*
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