TOPIC: Golembane - First Puzzle and Final Puzzle thoughts

Ill keep this brief since I'm going to post a more detailed review later but I didn't like the idea of the last room of a combat run being a puzzle (let alone a TPK puzzle with a treasure stamp tied to it). Putting aside all details of the room itself several people in my group complained about the way we had "beaten the monster" only to get cheated out of the win anyway as we walked out. Not my words but not words I like to hear coming out of new player mouths as were walking out of the final room of the second adventure into the XP line. Most of us (myself included) will be back next year but I strongly suspect we lost a few of our first timers there.

Also does anyone have any info about the TPK % in room 7 golem this year?

What level were you playing that it was TPK? When I did it on Hardcore we didn't have that affect. Yeah it zapped everyone but there was a chance to heal back up. Time was the issue, but time seems to always be the issue in room 7 in my experience.

jedibcg wrote: What level were you playing that it was TPK? When I did it on Hardcore we didn't have that affect. Yeah it zapped everyone but there was a chance to heal back up. Time was the issue, but time seems to always be the issue in room 7 in my experience.

Our group played it on normal, and we were told that the tower exploded and we all died when time ran out

We got the zaps too, the TPK I mentioned was when the tower exploded which IMO wasn't unexpected. The issues my friends had was more around the last room of a combat run being a puzzle then the fact that we got killed by time. It wasn't unfair or anything, they just didn't like that it seemed to lessen the accomplishment of beating what they received at the boss.

I think one of my buddies put it well when he said if they wanted to make escaping to the airship the final goal he was surprised the golem didn't climb back up through the window beaten, bloodied and berserk looking for a final showdown before we could escape.

Personally my only regret was that not all of my friends came with me on the puzzle side run where we solved it and got to hear the glados voice over. That made my night =)

My understanding is after play testing the puzzle was deemed so difficult it needed to be moved to room 7 and the Golem that was used in room 6 needed to be used in both puzzle and combat with the easiest solution being bouncing back and forth between room 6's (similar to the draco-lich last year).

A party wipe because you either don't defeat the monster or solve the puzzle in room 7 should be assumed to be the result I think. The difference is just want you pin says anyway. I don't think that the finally room should always be the same as the type of run, but most often it should. I think changing it keeps us on our toes. Just my two cents of course.

jedibcg wrote: My understanding is after play testing the puzzle was deemed so difficult it needed to be moved to room 7 and the Golem that was used in room 6 needed to be used in both puzzle and combat with the easiest solution being bouncing back and forth between room 6's (similar to the draco-lich last year).

A party wipe because you either don't defeat the monster or solve the puzzle in room 7 should be assumed to be the result I think. The difference is just want you pin says anyway. I don't think that the finally room should always be the same as the type of run, but most often it should. I think changing it keeps us on our toes. Just my two cents of course.

I don't particularly care if the final room is the boss fight or a puzzle. I think that to stay in the original vein of this thread, the question remains: Was the puzzle in room 7 a good / fair puzzle to send the party away on?

My opinion is no, and I'd ask if everyone else thought it was a good/fair puzzle, regardless of whether they figured it out / guessed the correct solution.

To summarize my reasoning for this from information across this thread...

1) The puzzle had multiple solutions (more than could be honestly attempted given the time and the amount of damage taken)

2) The apparent 'clue' you could receive was only given before the dungeon, if you thought to bribe a particular NPC, something many didn't even consider

3) From what I've gathered, the person to bribe didn't appear for all groups, mine included. Our group even asked everyone we came across for rumors or 'tales' from the dungeon hoping to, 'in-character', glean some information

4) Being TPK'd on the final room given 1-3 above left a bad taste in our mouths. It wasn't as bad as last year, but it did still leave us a bit sour, including a few new players with us. We're ok with losing, but losing due to us being unable to guess the correct sequence is frustrating

I'd love to hear some feedback from one of the powers that be regarding this topic, as the whole goal of this thread was to provide constructive feedback about a puzzle we found lacking and took away from the experience.

I know that creating the puzzles in each room must be difficult, but if we were somehow able to logically determine the exact sequence from clues in the room, or at least whittle the solutions down to 2 or 3, I wouldn't have posted this thread to begin with

I have to say that I went through the Golembane combat side, and saw no NPC with hints about the rooms ahead. I agree that this was unfair to offer some groups help while leaving others to fend for themselves.

I also DM'ed the puzzle side (room 7), and would frequently hear the 3-2-1-1-1-1-1 clue being muttered by players. To me, it seemed too much of a giveaway. I don't mean to be rude to anyone who had a hand in creating the puzzle, or training the NPC to give clues, but seriously...they're supposed to figure it out on their own. The clue should have been a bit less of a giveaway.

My first party solved the puzzle without the clue in the allotted time. If not for damage this is really easy to do if you just want to solve it fast.

Hit the door lever immediately and you would know that 4 were correct, meaning 4 had to be off for the finally solution and 6 on. That is half of it. Since the rogue clue (sorry if you don't take the clue or get it). Tell you the state of 1 and 10. That leaves you 8 that you need to figure out but leave them off.
Drop number 2 to on and only it. Hit the door lever. You will now know if it needs to be on or off (it had to be on). Do the same for lever 3. You would learn if it needed to be on or off. This can be done without the actual clues if you really wanted to and could absorb enough damage. Not ideal but there was time to do it if you thought of it.
The puzzle in my opinion was difficult but very solvable (again if you could handle the damage). But according to at least one True Dungeon person we tackled it in a way they didn't expect by Friday. We didn't attempt to figure which possibility was correct. We attempted to figure out the state of certain levers and go from there. That made the actual correct possibility a lot easier to get. I bet most that solved it did it this way as well. Again just my two cents worth. I ran through the Golembane 4 times. The first we solved it. The second I was not paying attention to time and the group failed but I blame myself. The third was solved by those that didn't know it and the final we tested out what was heard.

There were more options than I think people realize on the last puzzle. The only known info was #1 and #10 were on. Either 6 on or 6 off. One three in a row and no more than three in a row.

At best, you can solve this in (if unlucky) 8 tries.
Put all of them down and start with #2.
Pull #2 up. Hit button.
Answer will be 3 5 or 7.
If 3, that number should be down and there are only 4 ons.
If 5, remember that one.
If 7, that number is correct and there are 6 ons.
Replace #2 and continue. Repeat for #3 to #7.
At some point, you will hit a 3 or 7 that will tell you 6on/6off. #8 should be derivable from other info. You may get lucky and end early. Use attempt #8 to win.

Unfortunately, that's way too much dmg to soak.

Possible solutions (using O for off, X for on)
I'm not sure you could reliably test all of these even with infinite health in 10 min.

Solutions 1-18 assume 6 on.

If 6 off, a few more solutions are available:

You could use the green light in the room to determine the number of correct/incorrect responses after the first attempt, then change one switch at a time. This would reduce the number of needed attempts significantly.

We thought the puzzle was fair... we went through Golembane multiple runs, even with a crew of 7 totally new people that didn't get the clue at the beginning. They figured it out after three tries, yeah good thing we had tons of healing with us! One person noticed the lights and used that for hints while the others were trying to figure out every possible combination.

For the difficutly it should be a treasure room for the Puzzle side. The majority of the time we do combat and this being the last room on the combat side worth Treasure... was confusing.