TOPIC: NO Legendary Transmute Recipes to be Altered EVER

Scott Kwiker wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I think the trade goods not being balanced based on what you can expect to get out of orders in the safehold program has led to trade goods being all out of wack.

Also on some of the old legendary’s maybe consider reprinting some of the components when we go to token development. For example maybe reprinting Potion Hallowed Oasis Water for Relsa’s. I know a Omni orb can be used but that is cost prohibitive.

Or update old recipes to allow for “these old URs, or any Current Year UR”.

I think Omni orb is fine for the URs already

Jeff, Out of curiosity is the current roadmap still to cap treasure at 40 after the new ioun stones are printed? Knowing that there is a treasure cap coming would definitely have an effect on this.

Ben Krupa wrote: I agree with this wholeheartedly There were a number of factors which pushed down the cost of PYP's this year, to people making their Mark's of Enlightenments, to making their rings, and other Marks, with the cost of EB and OE skyrocketing. Since there's a cap on funding for these kinds of auctions, it means some things come down in price. I don't like that these recipe changes are being made due to the secondary market.

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I think there was just a problem of some low desire for ultra rares this year so people are using that to make COA cheaply. We just had lots of people focus on rings and marks and they drove up the secondary goods prices even more making the problem worse.

Rob F wrote: I'm still a bit confused as to why more CoA's within the player base is costly to True Dungeon. Is it because of all the shipping cost that they have to incur to ship out all the treasure pulls after the VTD events? Is it the time it takes for True Dungeon to do transmutes in general? Maybe both?

As for Legendary Tokens like the Bracers I don't think lowering the recipe cost is going to make any difference at all. People still will not transmit that legendary because it's just not a worthwhile Token to equip for in-game purposes. Changing the recipe in my opinion will just cause more work on TD's end and nothing will change. You can pick up these Bracers on the secondary market right now for under $400. I say leave the recipes alone. It's natural for older tokens that become underpowered over time that aren't worth using in game to not be desirable for transmuting. If TD wants people to transmute more Legendaries in general I suggest not putting so many into the treasure boxes. For almost all Legendaries right now It doesn't make any sense to transmute them because there are so many out there in the market. Much cheaper just to acquire them that way. That's how I currently obtain all of my Legendaries. When Legendaries used to cost me over 1K then I would transmit them. Haven't had to pay that much for one in 10 years.

Partly it's shipping and party as it was explained to me is TD has to order enough tokens for adventure treasure which tarrifs has made that more expensive.

Jeff has stated he hopes condensed treasure for vtd will help with that problem.

Jeff Martin wrote:
Charm of Avarice - CoA's have gotten too cheap for players to transmute based on historical secondary-market prices. I used these prices back in 2023 when the newest recipe (#3) was created to allow folks with the Amulet of Treasure Finding (and Beads) to use them to make the CoA. Every CoA created is a big liability for TD as some players use them to collect 100's or even 1,000's of treasure pulls in a year. And I hope that TD sticks around for a long time. Therefore, we want to make sure we keep CoA relatively rare. The alternative is just to remove the CoA entirely from the Transmute Program once the final Bead is out next year.

Jeff,
If the number of treasure pulls that players can have is the issue, why not set a treasure cap in 2027? If a treasure cap of 30 was applied, you should be able to figure out the maximum amount of treasure that you would need over the course of the year. 30 would mean that a player over 6th level with a Coin of Wealth would be at maximum treasure (20 CoW +6 Nuggets +3 base +1 6th level). After that you could still print treasure enhancers to allow other players to reach the 30 cap. Can add Treasure Enhancers to other slots and let people make choices.

James wrote:

Ben Krupa wrote: I agree with this wholeheartedly There were a number of factors which pushed down the cost of PYP's this year, to people making their Mark's of Enlightenments, to making their rings, and other Marks, with the cost of EB and OE skyrocketing. Since there's a cap on funding for these kinds of auctions, it means some things come down in price. I don't like that these recipe changes are being made due to the secondary market.

.

I think there was just a problem of some low desire for ultra rares this year so people are using that to make COA cheaply. We just had lots of people focus on rings and marks and they drove up the secondary goods prices even more making the problem worse.

It's also a several year trend, PYPs and URs in general have been dropping in price consistently the last few years. It might not have hit the floor yet.

Many if us have been saving trade goods for years to make legendaries. Now the goal post is moving without ample time for people to try to pull together the resources?

Also, changing recipes based on the "market" is not a fair way to change the recipes. Are you going to change the recipes when the market declines?

So what I really liked is I was able to transmute a bunch of my older Ultra rares I wasn't able to sell or use into a Cube, I think for 2027 recipes maybe making them a little less trade good intense an requiring like 3-4 Ultra rares for the legendaries it would help balance out the prices on them.

I feel like there is a fundamental misunderstanding about WHY URs have dropped in price.

It's not because there were bad URs in the set
it's not because URs have been getting worse over time.

It's because 8k auctions are Zero Sum. Every 8k auction on Trent's site (and most of the forum auctions) fund at 7,500.

When I started in 2015, Laz was selling PYPs on the forums for $100
In 2023, PYPs sold for a whole year average of 92.20.

That is very little movement in price over 8 years.

Then what happend in 2024?
The 2k Bonus (Marks of the Tenent were introduced) The 2k bonus item increased in value from $7 to $104.
-This means that other items in the 8k needed to drop in price by a total of $400 because the Tenents were soaking an extra $388 on average in value.

8k Bonus rewards (Path Fragments) doubled in price - from $541 average to $1049 in average.
-This means that the Path Fragments were soaking an extra $508 on average in value from the rest of the auction items.

Safe hold 4 was released. Almost every TG increased in average selling price
-It varies auction by auction, so for 2023 to 2024 let's say TG didn't affect the closing price of auctions. But it also means that the value soaked by Fragments and Tenets didn't affect TG.

The question is, what dropped by $896 on average in auctions to account for the higher prices of tenants and fragments?
-URs dropped in price roughly total $780 per auction. This is where the price drop occurred.

So what happened between 2024 and 2026?
-SH 3, 2, and 1 were released, one of every TG multi years were released. Both of these increased the pressure on trade goods, in particular OE and EB. OE and EB are up 250%, and it looks like both of those TG are going to get more expensive (they have sold for $70 each on Trent's site)
-Path Fragment went up up ANOTHER $500 average
-Rings and Tenants are soaking another $240 average from each auction
-On average, URs dropped $440 per auction - that offsets the increase from the path fragments


So what happens in 2027?
There will be no mulit year transmute
There will be no path fragments
There will be No tenets
there will be a New TE bead

This will completely rebalance auction values even if no changes are implemented. I expect URs will be at or above $100 due to this rebalance.

I would suggest taking no action on transmute recipes until the effect of multi years, path fragments, and tenets being out of the mix is understood. Waiting until Summer 27 is probably the best time to consider making changes.

Endgame wrote: I feel like there is a fundamental misunderstanding about WHY URs have dropped in price.

It's not because there were bad URs in the set
it's not because URs have been getting worse over time.

It's because 8k auctions are Zero Sum. Every 8k auction on Trent's site (and most of the forum auctions) fund at 7,500.

When I started in 2015, Laz was selling PYPs on the forums for $100
In 2023, PYPs sold for a whole year average of 92.20.

That is very little movement in price over 8 years.

Then what happend in 2024? The 2k Bonus (Marks of the Tenent were introduced) The 2k bonus item increased in value from $7 to $104.
-This means that other items in the 8k needed to drop in price by a total of $400 because the Tenents were soaking an extra $388 on average in value.

8k Bonus rewards (Path Fragments) doubled in price - from $541 average to $1049 in average.
-This means that the Path Fragments were soaking an extra $508 on average in value from the rest of the auction items.

Safe hold 4 was released. Almost every TG increased in average selling price
-It varies auction by auction, so for 2023 to 2024 let's say TG didn't affect the closing price of auctions. But it also means that the value soaked by Fragments and Tenets didn't affect TG.

The question is, what dropped by $896 on average in auctions to account for the higher prices of tenants and fragments?
-URs dropped in price roughly total $780 per auction. This is where the price drop occurred.

So what happened between 2024 and 2026?
-SH 3, 2, and 1 were released, one of every TG multi years were released. Both of these increased the pressure on trade goods, in particular OE and EB. OE and EB are up 250%, and it looks like both of those TG are going to get more expensive (they have sold for $70 each on Trent's site)
-Path Fragment went up up ANOTHER $500 average
-Rings and Tenants are soaking another $240 average from each auction
-On average, URs dropped $440 per auction - that offsets the increase from the path fragments


So what happens in 2027?
There will be no mulit year transmute
There will be no path fragments
There will be No tenets
there will be a New TE bead

This will completely rebalance auction values even if no changes are implemented. I expect URs will be at or above $100 due to this rebalance.

I would suggest taking no action on transmute recipes until the effect of multi years, path fragments, and tenets being out of the mix is understood. Waiting until Summer 27 is probably the best time to consider making changes.

I don’t know how many +1s I can give this, but please assume all of them

Endgame wrote: I feel like there is a fundamental misunderstanding about WHY URs have dropped in price.

It's not because there were bad URs in the set
it's not because URs have been getting worse over time.

It's because 8k auctions are Zero Sum. Every 8k auction on Trent's site (and most of the forum auctions) fund at 7,500.

When I started in 2015, Laz was selling PYPs on the forums for $100
In 2023, PYPs sold for a whole year average of 92.20.

That is very little movement in price over 8 years.

Then what happend in 2024? The 2k Bonus (Marks of the Tenent were introduced) The 2k bonus item increased in value from $7 to $104.
-This means that other items in the 8k needed to drop in price by a total of $400 because the Tenents were soaking an extra $388 on average in value.

8k Bonus rewards (Path Fragments) doubled in price - from $541 average to $1049 in average.
-This means that the Path Fragments were soaking an extra $508 on average in value from the rest of the auction items.

Safe hold 4 was released. Almost every TG increased in average selling price
-It varies auction by auction, so for 2023 to 2024 let's say TG didn't affect the closing price of auctions. But it also means that the value soaked by Fragments and Tenets didn't affect TG.

The question is, what dropped by $896 on average in auctions to account for the higher prices of tenants and fragments?
-URs dropped in price roughly total $780 per auction. This is where the price drop occurred.

So what happened between 2024 and 2026?
-SH 3, 2, and 1 were released, one of every TG multi years were released. Both of these increased the pressure on trade goods, in particular OE and EB. OE and EB are up 250%, and it looks like both of those TG are going to get more expensive (they have sold for $70 each on Trent's site)
-Path Fragment went up up ANOTHER $500 average
-Rings and Tenants are soaking another $240 average from each auction
-On average, URs dropped $440 per auction - that offsets the increase from the path fragments


So what happens in 2027?
There will be no mulit year transmute
There will be no path fragments
There will be No tenets
there will be a New TE bead

This will completely rebalance auction values even if no changes are implemented. I expect URs will be at or above $100 due to this rebalance.

I would suggest taking no action on transmute recipes until the effect of multi years, path fragments, and tenets being out of the mix is understood. Waiting until Summer 27 is probably the best time to consider making changes.

+1

Excellent write up.

Endgame wrote: I’m pretty sure what TaMor’s needs is a damage wheel and letting a monk use 2. Might be best done with a new legendary where TaMor’s is an alternate recipe ingredient, similar to Welfor’s -> Kilgore’s.


That discussion is kind of tangential to the CoA #3 recipe, where the components will almost certainly go up on their own in a few months

This is a good idea!

TaMor’s is the only legendary I never transmuted (I have 1 I bought in the secondary market just to be a completionist.)

I could see a 2027 bracer transmute that allowed morphing tamor’s into it’s next form. Bracer weapons are pretty brutal to justify, though. You are giving up 2 weapon slots and a competitive wrist slot.

Maybe something like dmg wheels akin to the strike fangs, you can use 2, and they count as a wildcard for any 1 set bonus? (or replace the wildcard with ability to crit/stun anything.)