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TOPIC: Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus?

Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #25

Fred K wrote: The relic rogue item has a limit of 2 sneak attacks on the same monster.The language appears to limit the sneaks to just the same monster (i.e. it doesn't explicitly say you could do attacks additional sneak attacks against a separate monster).

The TDb description of Raphiel's Sneaky Necklace says:
If there is more than one monster in the room, the wearer could potentially sneak attack any one of them--twice if desired. However, it does not allow a rogue to sneak attack two different monsters in the same room.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections in this thread .
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Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #26

Dave wrote: Charm of Awakened Synergy is technically a relic and as long as most of the party equips it, I believe it is considered BIS.

As far as Ring of Greater Focus, I suppose in the right build it might be BIS, but Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing are the two best rings for spell damage or healing. Ring of Greater Focus is only 3rd and if you're going to run Hand of Glory, you might as well go with the cheaper version of more damage with the Blessed Tempest Gloves. Now, with the Charm of Glory you might be looking at adding it back into the mix, but with all the other spell damage bonuses I'm getting, I'm happy enough to go with SRoEC.

Orion's Belt is also a relic. I wouldn't consider it BIS for most builds, but it can be useful depending on the type of build you're going for.

And of course, the helm and shield were already mentioned.

What do you mean CoAS is technically a relic. It is a relic. No technically about it

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Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #27

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Dave wrote: Charm of Awakened Synergy is technically a relic and as long as most of the party equips it, I believe it is considered BIS.

As far as Ring of Greater Focus, I suppose in the right build it might be BIS, but Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing are the two best rings for spell damage or healing. Ring of Greater Focus is only 3rd and if you're going to run Hand of Glory, you might as well go with the cheaper version of more damage with the Blessed Tempest Gloves. Now, with the Charm of Glory you might be looking at adding it back into the mix, but with all the other spell damage bonuses I'm getting, I'm happy enough to go with SRoEC.

Orion's Belt is also a relic. I wouldn't consider it BIS for most builds, but it can be useful depending on the type of build you're going for.

And of course, the helm and shield were already mentioned.

What do you mean CoAS is technically a relic. It is a relic. No technically about it


ok, so it wasn't the best choice of wording, but I actually did think his initial message might be focused just on relics that can upgrade to legendaries. Based on that, I added the word technically to differentiate them from relics that can be further upgraded.

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Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #28

Druegar wrote:

Fred K wrote: The relic rogue item has a limit of 2 sneak attacks on the same monster.The language appears to limit the sneaks to just the same monster (i.e. it doesn't explicitly say you could do attacks additional sneak attacks against a separate monster).

The TDb description of Raphiel's Sneaky Necklace says:
If there is more than one monster in the room, the wearer could potentially sneak attack any one of them--twice if desired. However, it does not allow a rogue to sneak attack two different monsters in the same room.


Thanks for correcting - I used imprecise wording, that was what I intended.

Fred
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Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #29

Dave wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Dave wrote: Charm of Awakened Synergy is technically a relic and as long as most of the party equips it, I believe it is considered BIS.

As far as Ring of Greater Focus, I suppose in the right build it might be BIS, but Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing are the two best rings for spell damage or healing. Ring of Greater Focus is only 3rd and if you're going to run Hand of Glory, you might as well go with the cheaper version of more damage with the Blessed Tempest Gloves. Now, with the Charm of Glory you might be looking at adding it back into the mix, but with all the other spell damage bonuses I'm getting, I'm happy enough to go with SRoEC.

Orion's Belt is also a relic. I wouldn't consider it BIS for most builds, but it can be useful depending on the type of build you're going for.

And of course, the helm and shield were already mentioned.

What do you mean CoAS is technically a relic. It is a relic. No technically about it


ok, so it wasn't the best choice of wording, but I actually did think his initial message might be focused just on relics that can upgrade to legendaries. Based on that, I added the word technically to differentiate them from relics that can be further upgraded.


Yes, I was looking at Relics with a Legendary path so Orion's Belt and Charm of Awakened Synergy wouldn't be on the list of tokens I was questioning as it was specifically about Relics that are wanted to stay in Relic form vs always wanting to upgrade to the Legend form.

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Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #30

Dave wrote: Charm of Awakened Synergy is technically a relic and as long as most of the party equips it, I believe it is considered BIS.

As far as Ring of Greater Focus, I suppose in the right build it might be BIS, but Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing are the two best rings for spell damage or healing. Ring of Greater Focus is only 3rd and if you're going to run Hand of Glory, you might as well go with the cheaper version of more damage with the Blessed Tempest Gloves. Now, with the Charm of Glory you might be looking at adding it back into the mix, but with all the other spell damage bonuses I'm getting, I'm happy enough to go with SRoEC.

Orion's Belt is also a relic. I wouldn't consider it BIS for most builds, but it can be useful depending on the type of build you're going for.

And of course, the helm and shield were already mentioned.


I'm curious what the general concensus is on the SRoEC as a spellcaster class now that the Eldritch set gives +1 level at 2 piece and only gives +1 spell damage/ +2 healing for the 3 piece bonus. I'd say Kilt of Dungeonbane + Boots of the Four Winds for the 2 piece set bonus and running Relsa's + Greater Ring of Focus + Ring of Spell Storing with Charm of Glory (or Hand of Glory) would be the preferred choice to maximize output?

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Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #31

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: Charm of Awakened Synergy is technically a relic and as long as most of the party equips it, I believe it is considered BIS.

As far as Ring of Greater Focus, I suppose in the right build it might be BIS, but Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing are the two best rings for spell damage or healing. Ring of Greater Focus is only 3rd and if you're going to run Hand of Glory, you might as well go with the cheaper version of more damage with the Blessed Tempest Gloves. Now, with the Charm of Glory you might be looking at adding it back into the mix, but with all the other spell damage bonuses I'm getting, I'm happy enough to go with SRoEC.

Orion's Belt is also a relic. I wouldn't consider it BIS for most builds, but it can be useful depending on the type of build you're going for.

And of course, the helm and shield were already mentioned.


I'm curious what the general concensus is on the SRoEC as a spellcaster class now that the Eldritch set gives +1 level at 2 piece and only gives +1 spell damage/ +2 healing for the 3 piece bonus. I'd say Kilt of Dungeonbane + Boots of the Four Winds for the 2 piece set bonus and running Relsa's + Greater Ring of Focus + Ring of Spell Storing with Charm of Glory (or Hand of Glory) would be the preferred choice to maximize output?


When did that change? I'm still seeing +2 damage for the 3 piece eldritch.
http://tokendb.com/token/supreme-ring-of-elemental-command/

Or am I reading your statement wrong? Are you saying an additional +1 damage and +2 healing?

Either way, the Greater Ring of Focus will maximize your damage, if that's what you want. Personally, I like the additional protection I get from the SRoEC. It's a net +2 damage gain based my interpretation. If we were talking the difference between +10 and +12 damage (just a what if), the Greater Ring would give me a 20% boost. But these days we're probably talking the difference between +25 or +27, which is less than a 4% boost.

This is one example of why I like playing wizard. I think there are arguments for multiple different BIS builds. It depends what you want, what you're comfortable playing and how much you want to spend.

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Last edit: by Dave.

Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #32

Absolutely. Pure damage makes Relsa's plus RoGF plus CoG and RoSS the best output.

Overall bonuses means SRoEC should be considered at least.

I do think he meant the +1 damage/+2 healing differential.
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Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #33

The whole argument around BIS for wizards/elf wizards is difficult to deal in absolutes. You have to make some assumptions and move forward from that. the assumption here is that Max Damage = BIS. I would generally agree, although the underlying assumption for most is that Max Treasure trumps all other decisions. But lets go with Max Damage. The first thing you need to do is calculate how much bonus damage you can generate per spell.

Taking a quick look
Drake's +5 Staff = +5
Lenses of Focus = +1
Earcuff of Inspiration = +4 (Assumes you are running with a decently equipped Bard)
Arcane Belt = +2
Boots of the Four Winds = +5
Shirt of Focus = +2
Bracelets of the Cabal = +1 (Assumes no other party member has this item)
Blessed Tempest Gloves = +3
Relsa's Ring of Focus = +5
Ring of Greater Focus = +3 (Assumes Charm of Glory is equipped since hand/neck slots are occupied and 2nd finger slot uses Ring of Spell Storing)
Ioun Stone Banshee Prism = +2
Gregor's Tome of Focus = +2
Eldritch Bonus = +2 (Kilt, Boots and Rod)

Adding all of the above you come to +37 (lets not even talk about adding Pixie Dust since its a consumable)
Then you have to consider how many combat rooms you'll face. Minimum is usually 3.
Then you have to consider how many rounds of combat you'll face. If I use Charm of Spell Swapping, I have 18 damage spells at my disposal (also assumes Crown of Expertise and Ring of Spell Storing)
My experience after running as Elf Wizard/Wizard well over 100 times is that I won't get more than 10 rounds of combat on the high end unless I'm running Epic level difficulty. It's not uncommon to only get 6.
So now I have extra spells. But each extra spell I can cast will give me at least +43 more damage in that room (assume level 0 spell like fire dart or acid splash). If I can get +43 more damage in 3 rooms = 129 more damage. You can increase that damage further by assuming a level 1 spell like magic missile is the bonus.
So now I have to look at including the Cabal Set as BIS if I really want Max Damage as calculated by average spell damage per round. That will tie up my hand slot and another charm slot. It takes my bonus damage per spell down to +34, but the math still supports Cabal Set as BIS.
This puts more pressure on the number of charm slots you have. Right now, the Charm Necklace solves that problem, but if the new legendary ties up the neck slot, you have a problem. If Cabal is BIS, then you can't use the Charm Bracelet. You can use the Aracane Earcuff, but you're sacrificing the Earcuff of Orbits. With a new treasure enhancer coming out next year in the ioun stone slot, those slots are getting tight as well.
At some point, its going to get tougher and tougher to justify the Charm of Glory, and make you reconsider the Greater Ring of Focus. But that's what I love about this class. There are tradeoffs no matter what decision you make.

Edit
Giving further thought to my last comment, Orion's Belt might be an option. You dump the +2 from the Arcane Belt, but gain a charm slot to help keep CoG for the +3 extra ring. You'll have judge if the extra cost of 2 relics (Orions and RoGF) are worth what would now be a +1 gain in damage. But you also get 2 ioun stone slots to help there and can use the Arcane Earcuff without worry.

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Last edit: by Dave.

Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #34

Druegar wrote:

Fred K wrote: The relic rogue item has a limit of 2 sneak attacks on the same monster.The language appears to limit the sneaks to just the same monster (i.e. it doesn't explicitly say you could do attacks additional sneak attacks against a separate monster).

The TDb description of Raphiel's Sneaky Necklace says:
If there is more than one monster in the room, the wearer could potentially sneak attack any one of them--twice if desired. However, it does not allow a rogue to sneak attack two different monsters in the same room.


I was more thinking about whether it would be possible to attack the same monster with three Sneak Attacks - once with the basic one, once with an additional one from the necklace and once with another additional one from the necklace. The wording on the necklace is that it allows you to Sneak Attack a "2nd" time which suggests you can't use both of the additional Sneak Attacks from the necklace in the same combat, but I wasn't 100% sure as I have played other (non-TD) games in the past which do allow players to stack multiple instances of abilities which allow you to do something a "2nd" time.
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Last edit: by Iross.

Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #35

Iross wrote: The wording on the necklace is that it allows you to Sneak Attack a "2nd" time which suggests you can't use both of the additional Sneak Attacks from the necklace in the same combat, but I wasn't 100% sure

Whenever you're not sure how a token works, your best source for information is tokendb.com (aka the TDb). Don't rely solely on the wording printed on the token because there simply isn't room to elucidate the nuances of some tokens' effects. If the TDb doesn't answer your question, feel free to post your question here on the forums.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections in this thread .
If I write something in teal, it should not be taken seriously

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Relic tokens that are BIS other than Ring of Greater Focus? 3 years 9 months ago #36

Loaded question. Ring of Greater Focus is not a relic I use.

The relics I use:
Bead of the Lucky Traveller
Charm of Awakened Synergy
Icecrag Hero’s Earcuff
Orion’s Belt

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Last edit: by edwin.
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