TOPIC: Consistency of Focus Items

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.

You should maybe post some builds.

2019 Barbarian BiS build, +22 hit, +41 damage.
Key items (which I believe are all usable by Fighters and Paladin, but numbers shift a bit)
*Redoubt Set (alternatively, replace redoubt helm with Crown of Might or Helm of the Boar, and tweak armor to Nether Brute Armor)
*+5 Deathcleaver
*Str neck (either stu's or valhalla)
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Dracolitch, Greater onyx, Fiendish
*SRoEC, Ring of the Eel
*Gauntlets of Linked Fury
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Blessed Strength
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, Infernal Fire, (Onyx Sphere if you break redoubt set)
*Ro7P

2019 Druid BiS build, +18 hit, +35 damage in poly
Key Items
*Iktomi's
*Crown of Might
*+5 Baton of Focus, Brawlers Horn
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Greater onyx, Spell Swapping, Brooching (could become dracolitch, but then the barb has better saves)
*SRoEC, +5 ring of Focus, +3 Ring of Focus
*Gloves of Glory
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Focus
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, IS Onyx Sphere, Infernal Fire
*Gregor's Tome of Focus
*Ro7P

Thanks for posting the builds.

If you swap around a few things in the Druid build to be more melee focused let's see what happens:

First off, why do you say the Druid needs Brooching or the Barbarian gets better saves? Base Barbarian saves are +6/+2/+2, base Druid saves are +6/+3/+8 - looks to me like it's the Barbrian who needs to drop Draco-Lich to avoid having worse saves, not the other way around.

Make these changes to your Druid build and see how it changes melee to-hit/damage:

-Brooching / + Dracolich: +0/+2 damage
- Gloves of Glory, -+3 Ring of Focus / +Mithral Gauntlets: +2/+2
- +5 Ring of Focus, +Ring of the Eeel: +0/+3
- Spell Swapping, +Fiendish Charm: +1/+1
+ Greater Mistletoe: +1 spell damage
+ Earcuff of Sonic Splendor: +1 spell damage

Now the Druid build is +21 to hit, +43 to damage in poly.

So the difference between the Barbarian and the Druid is:

1. Barbarian is +1 to hit better
2. Druid is +2 to damage better
3. Druid's damage wheel is: 6, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18 - average 11
4. Barbarian's damage wheel is: 8, 10, 10, 12, 16, 21 - average 12.833
5. Druid gets crits on 19 or 20
6. Druid gets to choose to deal one of the 4 elemental damage types on it's attacks, which is often worth +5 damage, alternatively they can choose to take -10 DR from an elemental type.

It's somewhat a matter of taste, but I'm inclined to say the Druid's result on 1-6 is better. Which means a polymorphing druid is better (or arguably better) at melee combat than a friggin' Barbarian.

So that's melee combat.

But wait - there's more!

In this build the Druid has +18 spell damage, and +22 spell healing.

So in addition to being comparable, and maybe better at melee to a BiS melee barbarian, this Druid gets to:

a. Fire off a spell surged 58 point Call Lightning once per game instead of sliding.
b. Heal allies for 212 points of damage over the dungeon. (4x cure minor, 2x cure light, 1x cure moderate, all with +22 healing)
c. Make one target immune to cold, shock, or fire for a room.
d. If desired, fire off a 38 point Call Lightning, 2x 32 point Fire Darts, 3x 29 point Freezing Orbs.

Are there even half a dozen people who could field a build like this?

Harlax wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.

You should maybe post some builds.

2019 Barbarian BiS build, +22 hit, +41 damage.
Key items (which I believe are all usable by Fighters and Paladin, but numbers shift a bit)
*Redoubt Set (alternatively, replace redoubt helm with Crown of Might or Helm of the Boar, and tweak armor to Nether Brute Armor)
*+5 Deathcleaver
*Str neck (either stu's or valhalla)
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Dracolitch, Greater onyx, Fiendish
*SRoEC, Ring of the Eel
*Gauntlets of Linked Fury
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Blessed Strength
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, Infernal Fire, (Onyx Sphere if you break redoubt set)
*Ro7P

2019 Druid BiS build, +18 hit, +35 damage in poly
Key Items
*Iktomi's
*Crown of Might
*+5 Baton of Focus, Brawlers Horn
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Greater onyx, Spell Swapping, Brooching (could become dracolitch, but then the barb has better saves)
*SRoEC, +5 ring of Focus, +3 Ring of Focus
*Gloves of Glory
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Focus
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, IS Onyx Sphere, Infernal Fire
*Gregor's Tome of Focus
*Ro7P

Thanks for posting the builds.

If you swap around a few things in the Druid build to be more melee focused let's see what happens:

First off, why do you say the Druid needs Brooching or the Barbarian gets better saves? Base Barbarian saves are +6/+2/+2, base Druid saves are +6/+3/+8 - looks to me like it's the Barbrian who needs to drop Draco-Lich to avoid having worse saves, not the other way around.

Make these changes to your Druid build and see how it changes melee to-hit/damage:

-Brooching / + Dracolich: +0/+2 damage
- Gloves of Glory, -+3 Ring of Focus / +Mithral Gauntlets: +2/+2
- +5 Ring of Focus, +Ring of the Eeel: +0/+3
- Spell Swapping, +Fiendish Charm: +1/+1
+ Greater Mistletoe: +1 spell damage
+ Earcuff of Sonic Splendor: +1 spell damage

Now the Druid build is +21 to hit, +43 to damage in poly.

So the difference between the Barbarian and the Druid is:

1. Barbarian is +1 to hit better
2. Druid is +2 to damage better
3. Druid's damage wheel is: 6, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18 - average 11
4. Barbarian's damage wheel is: 8, 10, 10, 12, 16, 21 - average 12.833
5. Druid gets crits on 19 or 20
6. Druid gets to choose to deal one of the 4 elemental damage types on it's attacks, which is often worth +5 damage, alternatively they can choose to take -10 DR from an elemental type.

It's somewhat a matter of taste, but I'm inclined to say the Druid's result on 1-6 is better. Which means a polymorphing druid is better (or arguably better) at melee combat than a friggin' Barbarian.

So that's melee combat.

But wait - there's more!

In this build the Druid has +18 spell damage, and +22 spell healing.

So in addition to being comparable, and maybe better at melee to a BiS melee barbarian, this Druid gets to:

a. Fire off a spell surged 58 point Call Lightning once per game instead of sliding.
b. Heal allies for 212 points of damage over the dungeon. (4x cure minor, 2x cure light, 1x cure moderate, all with +22 healing)
c. Make one target immune to cold, shock, or fire for a room.
d. If desired, fire off a 38 point Call Lightning, 2x 32 point Fire Darts, 3x 29 point Freezing Orbs.

Are there even half a dozen people who could field a build like this?

That probably depends on how finely you define "like this"... Those exact tokens? I'd guess the number is closer to a dozen (maybe more). With swapping in a Relic in place of one of the Legendaries? I'd guess closer to two to three dozen (maybe more).

Looking at Cranston’s original post #1, it seems like we’ve stopped helping him answer his original questions several pages ago.

His point about Staff of Focus is valid. If the intent of polymorph is to include all melee bonuses, the to-hit bonus is included on the party card, but the damage bonus is not because it’s baked into the wheel. For that reason, I would support all focus weapons (only) applying focus to polymorph damage, for unspecified reasons. Because all that’s really doing is transferring the melee damage bonus from the weapon to the party card. So I’ll tweak my vote along those lines.

Harlax wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.

You should maybe post some builds.

2019 Barbarian BiS build, +22 hit, +41 damage.
Key items (which I believe are all usable by Fighters and Paladin, but numbers shift a bit)
*Redoubt Set (alternatively, replace redoubt helm with Crown of Might or Helm of the Boar, and tweak armor to Nether Brute Armor)
*+5 Deathcleaver
*Str neck (either stu's or valhalla)
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Dracolitch, Greater onyx, Fiendish
*SRoEC, Ring of the Eel
*Gauntlets of Linked Fury
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Blessed Strength
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, Infernal Fire, (Onyx Sphere if you break redoubt set)
*Ro7P

2019 Druid BiS build, +18 hit, +35 damage in poly
Key Items
*Iktomi's
*Crown of Might
*+5 Baton of Focus, Brawlers Horn
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Greater onyx, Spell Swapping, Brooching (could become dracolitch, but then the barb has better saves)
*SRoEC, +5 ring of Focus, +3 Ring of Focus
*Gloves of Glory
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Focus
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, IS Onyx Sphere, Infernal Fire
*Gregor's Tome of Focus
*Ro7P

Thanks for posting the builds.

If you swap around a few things in the Druid build to be more melee focused let's see what happens:

First off, why do you say the Druid needs Brooching or the Barbarian gets better saves? Base Barbarian saves are +6/+2/+2, base Druid saves are +6/+3/+8 - looks to me like it's the Barbrian who needs to drop Draco-Lich to avoid having worse saves, not the other way around.

Make these changes to your Druid build and see how it changes melee to-hit/damage:

-Brooching / + Dracolich: +0/+2 damage
- Gloves of Glory, -+3 Ring of Focus / +Mithral Gauntlets: +2/+2
- +5 Ring of Focus, +Ring of the Eeel: +0/+3
- Spell Swapping, +Fiendish Charm: +1/+1
+ Greater Mistletoe: +1 spell damage
+ Earcuff of Sonic Splendor: +1 spell damage

Now the Druid build is +21 to hit, +43 to damage in poly.

So the difference between the Barbarian and the Druid is:

1. Barbarian is +1 to hit better
2. Druid is +2 to damage better
3. Druid's damage wheel is: 6, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18 - average 11
4. Barbarian's damage wheel is: 8, 10, 10, 12, 16, 21 - average 12.833
5. Druid gets crits on 19 or 20
6. Druid gets to choose to deal one of the 4 elemental damage types on it's attacks, which is often worth +5 damage, alternatively they can choose to take -10 DR from an elemental type.

It's somewhat a matter of taste, but I'm inclined to say the Druid's result on 1-6 is better. Which means a polymorphing druid is better (or arguably better) at melee combat than a friggin' Barbarian.

So that's melee combat.

But wait - there's more!

In this build the Druid has +18 spell damage, and +22 spell healing.

So in addition to being comparable, and maybe better at melee to a BiS melee barbarian, this Druid gets to:

a. Fire off a spell surged 58 point Call Lightning once per game instead of sliding.
b. Heal allies for 212 points of damage over the dungeon. (4x cure minor, 2x cure light, 1x cure moderate, all with +22 healing)
c. Make one target immune to cold, shock, or fire for a room.
d. If desired, fire off a 38 point Call Lightning, 2x 32 point Fire Darts, 3x 29 point Freezing Orbs.

Are there even half a dozen people who could field a build like this?

I suspect the Druid legendary is the main blocker there - or sroec.

But it doesn’t really matter. Strip away sroec and botfw from both builds, swap surtrs for belt of ogre power, etc - it all hinders both melee builds the same and the Druid will still be comparable with the Barbarian. (Stripping away eldritch pieces does ding the spell healing buffs quite a bit).

You can even lose Inktomis without changing much and replace it with the relic.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Looking at Cranston’s original post #1, it seems like we’ve stopped helping him answer his original questions several pages ago.

His point about Staff of Focus is valid. If the intent of polymorph is to include all melee bonuses, the to-hit bonus is included on the party card, but the damage bonus is not because it’s baked into the wheel. For that reason, I would support all focus weapons (only) applying focus to polymorph damage, for unspecified reasons. Because all that’s really doing is transferring the melee damage bonus from the weapon to the party card. So I’ll tweak my vote along those lines.

I agree with this - just consistently back apply focus bonuses to poly damage.

Applying rules to code is always a really good sanity check on your rules. If you need one or more conditionals for the same name, then you have done something poorly / bad rules wise. In this case, there are conditionals for polymorph with things named "focus". Not only does it suck to code around, but it can lead to confusion with the player base.

Finally, when changing things for consistency sake, if given the choice between a buff path and a nerf path, the buff path is almost always the best way to go for players. You are much less likely to cause a negative experience giving someone something extra, than taking something away.

OK, I took the Druid challenge. Using only tokens I have with the exception of the Relic neck. I don't have that, but its within the realm of possibility for me. For some reason the html paste doesn't show polymorph damage. Its 28. Minor upgrade to spell damage.

Major down grades from my usual build are hit ponts, saves and loss of LoDS. The last is not the hit it used to be, but still poses a risk of overhealing. Minor downgrade to healing bonus.

The biggest downside for me - I had to cannibalize my Fighter/Dwarf Fighter build to do it. So my son and I could not play in the same run.

Poly

STR: 29
DEX: 20
CON: 22
INT: 11
WIS: 19
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 17 Damage: 18 AC: 28

Range:
Hit: 10 Damage: 17 AC: 28 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 19 Heal: 18 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 15 Fort: 19 Will: 17

Treasure:
Min: 18 Max: 20

Health: 57

Damage Reduction:

Melee	Range	Spell	Fire	Cold	Shock	Sonic	Eldritch	Poison	Darkrift	Sacred
0	4	4	22	15	10	10	0	0	0	0

Melee Mainhand: +3 Baton of Focus
Melee Offhand: Dragonscale Shield
Ranged Mainhand: Thor's +5 Returning Hammer of Smiting
Ranged Offhand: Dragonscale Shield
Head: Dragonscale Helmet
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Right Ear: Icecrag Hero’s Earcuff
Neck: Shaman’s Greater Necklace
Bead: Bead of the Lucky Traveler
Torso: Dragonscale Armor
Wrist: Bracers of Fast Fitness
Hands: Gloves of Weapon Finesse
Back: Greater Cloak of Destiny
Ring: Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus
Ring: Supreme Ring of Elemental Command
Waist: Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Shirt: Shirt of Blessed Strength
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Strength
Shins: Flameguard Greaves
Boots: Boots of the Four Winds
Figurine: Figurine of Power: Raven
Charm: Charm of Avarice
Charm: Charm of Awakened Synergy
Charm: Charm of Spell Swapping
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Garnet Cube
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Gold Nugget
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Quicksilver Cube
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Silver Nugget
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Tanzanite Cube
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Amethyst Ovoid
Slotless: Ash's Death Pouch
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Slotless: Kvothe’s Bloodless
Slotless: 1st Tooth of Cavadar
Slotless: 2nd Tooth of Cavadar
Slotless: 3rd Tooth of Cavadar
Slotless: 4th Tooth of Cavadar
Slotless: 5th Tooth of Cavadar
Slotless: Greater Alchemist Pouch
Slotless: Greater Arcane Scroll Tube
Slotless: Greater Mistletoe
Slotless: Lotus Blossom Bowls
Slotless: Pouch of Tulz
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts
Runestone: Decay Runestone

One minor change with rares you likely have would net you some extra damage. I also added the poly damage stats - +5 for being level 5, +5 for your Baton and Tome:

Harlax wrote: OK, I took the Druid challenge. Using only tokens I have with the exception of the Relic neck. I don't have that, but its within the realm of possibility for me.

Poly

STR: 32

Melee:
Hit: 16 Damage: 20 AC: 28

Poly:
Hit: 16 Damage: 30 AC: 28

Hands: Gauntlets of the Midgard Serpent
Shins: Venomnguard Greaves

I see my simple question thread was taken over by the 'Nattering Police'... sigh

Cranston wrote: I see my simple question thread was taken over by the 'Nattering Police'... sigh

I tried to keep them on focus... I think....lol.

jedibcg wrote:

Cranston wrote: I see my simple question thread was taken over by the 'Nattering Police'... sigh

I tried to keep them on focus... I think....lol.

Well, in addition to lots of nattering, I did respond to the simple question more than once.

Cranston wrote: I see my simple question thread was taken over by the 'Nattering Police'... sigh

It has, but I think your OP was solved in the first 5 responses:

a. Some people agree with you.
b. The rest say it would be bad to change tokens to do something other than what's written on them for the modest benefit of consistency - but perhaps going forward we should standardize on what focus means.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Cranston wrote: I see my simple question thread was taken over by the 'Nattering Police'... sigh

It has, but I think your OP was solved in the first 5 responses:

a. Some people agree with you.
b. The rest say it would be bad to change tokens to do something other than what's written on them for the modest benefit of consistency - but perhaps going forward we should standardize on what focus means.

With the biggest discussion point for standardizing going forward being whether or not polymorph bonuses would be included.