TOPIC: Consistency of Focus Items

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

Would you prefer it said as "Of classes that can make a legitimate spell damage build, druids are the worst"?

Neither Bard nor Cleric can make a spell damage build that I'm aware of that would legitimately be discussed as a real build, much in the same way you wouldn't seriously discuss a "melee wizard".

Melee wizard is a much more viable build than making a Bard or Cleric spell damage build. There are so many STR-boosting and melee to-hit/damage bonuses available to all classes that you don't really fall that short of what a Fighter can do. (Yes it is less, but not that much less).

It's especially viable when you figure that the Wizard doesn't need to worry about AC since the Paladin can guard both Wizards.

By that logic any character doesn't have to worry about AC, as there is nothing that says the Paladin has to guard the wizards.

Don't the Paladins almost always guard the Wizards, since they are the lowest AC? That's how it is in our group.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote: Would you prefer it said as "Of classes that can make a legitimate spell damage build, druids are the worst?

It would be more accurate, but misses the point of the discussion.

I’ll paraphrase the discussion from my perspective:

Me: Polymorph Druid is overpowered overall when compared to all other classes against three specific criteria.

Per MH’s analysis:
When looking at healing, they’re #1 out of 12, which you called “worst.”
When looking at offensive spells, they’re #3 out of 12, which you called “worst.”
When looking at melee, they’re #3 or 4 out of 12, which you called “worst.”

So if you want to say Druids are the worst of the top three in two of the three categories, sure, I’ll agree to that.

I’ll amend my challenge: name any other character who is in the top three in just TWO of those major categories.

But I have the impression that 95% or more of the people reading this wish we’d just drop this already.

I voted once, I’m not repeating it.

Bard? Top 3 healer, stand alone melee damage higher than the poly druid posted earlier.

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

Would you prefer it said as "Of classes that can make a legitimate spell damage build, druids are the worst"?

Neither Bard nor Cleric can make a spell damage build that I'm aware of that would legitimately be discussed as a real build, much in the same way you wouldn't seriously discuss a "melee wizard".

Melee wizard is a much more viable build than making a Bard or Cleric spell damage build. There are so many STR-boosting and melee to-hit/damage bonuses available to all classes that you don't really fall that short of what a Fighter can do. (Yes it is less, but not that much less).

It's especially viable when you figure that the Wizard doesn't need to worry about AC since the Paladin can guard both Wizards.

By that logic any character doesn't have to worry about AC, as there is nothing that says the Paladin has to guard the wizards.

Don't the Paladins almost always guard the Wizards, since they are the lowest AC? That's how it is in our group.

Guard the bard! Especially when the unselected classes are druid and elf wizard

I guard newer players first, then ask who would like to be guarded.

If no one asks, I'll scan the lists and go from there, or guard different classes each time.

Wizards can get a decent AC with a reasonably high Dex, so it isnt a given.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I guard newer players first, then ask who would like to be guarded.

If no one asks, I'll scan the lists and go from there, or guard different classes each time.

Wizards can get a decent AC with a reasonably high Dex, so it isnt a given.

I guess for my group we always use the token builds I bring, and of those the Paladin guards either the two Wizards or Wizard & Rogue (if we only have one Wizard character).

Can a Druid really simultaneously be a both a casting powerhouse and an elite damage polymorph damage character? I passed on the Druid Relic legendary because my build maxed healing and nerfed strength.

Endgame wrote: Bard? Top 3 healer, stand alone melee damage higher than the poly druid posted earlier.

Nope. See post #35. If you disagree, argue with Matthew.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote: Bard? Top 3 healer, stand alone melee damage higher than the poly druid posted earlier.

Nope. See post #35. If you disagree, argue with Matthew.

Per Matthew's numbers, he had the Druid #7 in total damage. Figuring the two Wizards are above the Druid in spell damage, that still means that the Druid is #5 in Melee Damage, not #3 or #4. And I'm not sure the Druid is that high in melee, because I'm not sure how much of the Druid's #7 overall rankings is due to Melee and how much to Spells.

It really seems like you just started with the conclusion that the Druid is overpowered, and then picked the three things the Druid is best at (although not simultaneously) and said that those three things mean a class is overpowered. Doing the most Melee Damage and doing the most Ranged damage (both of which the Monk does) seems much more impressive than a middle of the pack melee result or coming in last between the three major damage spellcasters and two major healing spellcasters.

Harlax wrote: Can a Druid really simultaneously be a both a casting powerhouse and an elite damage polymorph damage character? I passed on the Druid Relic legendary because my build maxed healing and nerfed strength.

You can't maximize both at the same time, but you can be highly effective at both with only a bit of sacrificing compared to either extreme.
Here is the Druid build I used at GenCon. Mixed Druid build

It isn't the most min/max build, but I felt it was extremely effective at polymorph, spell damage, and healing.

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: Can a Druid really simultaneously be a both a casting powerhouse and an elite damage polymorph damage character? I passed on the Druid Relic legendary because my build maxed healing and nerfed strength.

You can't maximize both at the same time, but you can be highly effective at both with only a bit of sacrificing compared to either extreme.
Here is the Druid build I used at GenCon. Mixed Druid build

It isn't the most min/max build, but I felt it was extremely effective at polymorph, spell damage, and healing.

Where you maximized Strength, I maximized Con. Otherwise the builds are very similar. I’d hesitate to go epic with the HP on your build.

Harlax wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: Can a Druid really simultaneously be a both a casting powerhouse and an elite damage polymorph damage character? I passed on the Druid Relic legendary because my build maxed healing and nerfed strength.

You can't maximize both at the same time, but you can be highly effective at both with only a bit of sacrificing compared to either extreme.
Here is the Druid build I used at GenCon. Mixed Druid build

It isn't the most min/max build, but I felt it was extremely effective at polymorph, spell damage, and healing.

Where you maximized Strength, I maximized Con. Otherwise the builds are very similar. I’d hesitate to go epic with the HP on your build.

Keep in mind, on TDCC, CoAS only gives 1 HP. A full party would be 9 more. Plus, the Paladin can just guard the druid if needed.

@Mike, just because one class (Monk) is OP doesnt mean another isnt ALSO OP.
You're never going to agree or admit the druid is, I think we can all see that. Pointing to the monk and saying, "they're worse than druids, look!" does not mean much in all honesty. Also, Monks can't really heal, even at 2nd or 3rd best.

@MikeSteele - I agree, Monks and Rangers are OP melee classes. But nobody is arguing that focus should apply to melee damage. I’m trying to stay on topic a little bit.

And if you don’t think those are the three most important aspects in combat, what would you suggest? But let’s do it in a different thread.