TOPIC: Consistency of Focus Items

@Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

It’s like saying Rogues are the worst at opening boxes because we can’t count the eleven who can’t.

Let’s put it this way: name any other class that is in the top three in each of these major categories: melee damage, spell damage, and healing.

There are 12 classes. One could argue there enough spots for each class to be in the top four of one category. Druid takes up three times their fair share.

But this is getting us nowhere. Give it up. We’ll never agree on whether Druids are OP or not.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.

Wrong. You kicked it off one post before that, when you suggested that Druids should be made more powerful by making all focus items apply to polymorph.

Wizards polymorph as well. Adding polymorph to future Focus tokens increases polymorphed Wizard damage as much as it does polymorphed Druid damage.

Right, but they aren’t one of the top two healers, are they?

You can’t just cherrypick, and say “Rogues are OP because they’re the best lockpickers.” You have to look at the whole picture.

Wizards are the best at Wands, and they have access to damage scrolls that Druids don't (especially effective for lower token builds). They do the best spell damage and are near the top in total damage of all types. I personally think all the damage dealing Wizards do outweighs healing the Druid can do.

Plus however much healing Druids retain, that directly correlates to a loss of damage spells. If a Druid changes healing spells to damage spells to get close to the Wizard in damage capability, he'll have little to no healing left. And, if a Druid is casting healing spells, those are turns he isn't casting damage spells or doing melee attacks, dropping her further down the relative damage scale.

This thread isn't even about Druid vs Wizard, it's about consistency with focus tokens. I vote (with possible exceptions) for them to be consistent, and to include healing, damage, and polymorph bonuses.

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

It’s like saying Rogues are the worst at opening boxes because we can’t count the eleven who can’t.

Let’s put it this way: name any other class that is in the top three in each of these major categories: melee damage, spell damage, and healing.

There are 12 classes. One could argue there enough spots for each class to be in the top four of one category. Druid takes up three times their fair share.

But this is getting us nowhere. Give it up. We’ll never agree on whether Druids are OP or not.

We'll probably never agree on whether Wizards are OP or not either.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

It’s like saying Rogues are the worst at opening boxes because we can’t count the eleven who can’t.

Let’s put it this way: name any other class that is in the top three in each of these major categories: melee damage, spell damage, and healing.

There are 12 classes. One could argue there enough spots for each class to be in the top four of one category. Druid takes up three times their fair share.

But this is getting us nowhere. Give it up. We’ll never agree on whether Druids are OP or not.

We'll probably never agree on whether Wizards are OP or not either.

This is me, taking my own advice

Brad Mortensen wrote:
It’s like saying Rogues are the worst at opening boxes because we can’t count the eleven who can’t.

While they can't open the box, Druids *CAN* get the clue once per adventure if they desire......

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:
It’s like saying Rogues are the worst at opening boxes because we can’t count the eleven who can’t.

While they can't open the box, Druids *CAN* get the clue once per adventure if they desire......

So... second worst.

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:
It’s like saying Rogues are the worst at opening boxes because we can’t count the eleven who can’t.

While they can't open the box, Druids *CAN* get the clue once per adventure if they desire......

So... second worst.

Or second best, depending on your philosophical bent......

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

Would you prefer it said as "Of classes that can make a legitimate spell damage build, druids are the worst"?

Neither Bard nor Cleric can make a spell damage build that I'm aware of that would legitimately be discussed as a real build, much in the same way you wouldn't seriously discuss a "melee wizard".

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

Would you prefer it said as "Of classes that can make a legitimate spell damage build, druids are the worst"?

Neither Bard nor Cleric can make a spell damage build that I'm aware of that would legitimately be discussed as a real build, much in the same way you wouldn't seriously discuss a "melee wizard".

Melee wizard is a much more viable build than making a Bard or Cleric spell damage build. There are so many STR-boosting and melee to-hit/damage bonuses available to all classes that you don't really fall that short of what a Fighter can do. (Yes it is less, but not that much less).

Endgame wrote: Would you prefer it said as "Of classes that can make a legitimate spell damage build, druids are the worst?

It would be more accurate, but misses the point of the discussion.

I’ll paraphrase the discussion from my perspective:

Me: Polymorph Druid is overpowered overall when compared to all other classes against three specific criteria.

Per MH’s analysis:
When looking at healing, they’re #1 out of 12, which you called “worst.”
When looking at offensive spells, they’re #3 out of 12, which you called “worst.”
When looking at melee, they’re #3 or 4 out of 12, which you called “worst.”

So if you want to say Druids are the worst of the top three in two of the three categories, sure, I’ll agree to that.

I’ll amend my challenge: name any other character who is in the top three in just TWO of those major categories.

But I have the impression that 95% or more of the people reading this wish we’d just drop this already.

I voted once, I’m not repeating it.

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

Would you prefer it said as "Of classes that can make a legitimate spell damage build, druids are the worst"?

Neither Bard nor Cleric can make a spell damage build that I'm aware of that would legitimately be discussed as a real build, much in the same way you wouldn't seriously discuss a "melee wizard".

Melee wizard is a much more viable build than making a Bard or Cleric spell damage build. There are so many STR-boosting and melee to-hit/damage bonuses available to all classes that you don't really fall that short of what a Fighter can do. (Yes it is less, but not that much less).

It's especially viable when you figure that the Wizard doesn't need to worry about AC since the Paladin can guard both Wizards.

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - we’re trying to compare all classes against each other. Cleric has two offensive spells and one is conditional. How are they not the worst? Or Bard? They’re so bad we don’t count them? It’s just as ridiculous to say Druid is the worst offensive spell caster as it is to say Ranger is the worst melee fighter, because Monk is better and we can’t count the ten characters that only swing one weapon.

Would you prefer it said as "Of classes that can make a legitimate spell damage build, druids are the worst"?

Neither Bard nor Cleric can make a spell damage build that I'm aware of that would legitimately be discussed as a real build, much in the same way you wouldn't seriously discuss a "melee wizard".

Melee wizard is a much more viable build than making a Bard or Cleric spell damage build. There are so many STR-boosting and melee to-hit/damage bonuses available to all classes that you don't really fall that short of what a Fighter can do. (Yes it is less, but not that much less).

It's especially viable when you figure that the Wizard doesn't need to worry about AC since the Paladin can guard both Wizards.

By that logic any character doesn't have to worry about AC, as there is nothing that says the Paladin has to guard the wizards.