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TOPIC: Consistency of Focus Items

Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #37

@Matthew - don’t forget Paladin. So there are five healers. The worst healers in the game are the seven who have zero.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #38

jedibcg wrote: Can I suppose something else to everyone? What does it matter if the Druid is or is not overpowered? This isn't a competition. If the druid does or doesn't do more damage than another class it they don't get anything special for it. The party gets damage on the monster. That party doesn't get anything over another party. Anyone has the opportunity to play the Druid (though your opportunity may be less if you are not at least 3rd level but that is a different thread).

Sure you can argue during token design that some character shouldn't get access to a token for power reasons. But if Jeff does want to make the Druid the most powerful or the least, why argue with each other about its power level? This happens again and again but it does achieve anything arguing with each other if it is or isn't overpowered.

Sorry maybe I am just grumble and will not read this topic for awhile. Someone let me know if any changes to focus are made because that is what I care about.


I don't think it matters that much, I mainly react when people try to claim that Wizards are overpowered. When this claim is made, it's usually coupled with the claim that Druids are not.

I find the "it's not a competition, it's a team game" argument uncompelling. I presume you would not like it if the Fighter legendary said: Auto-kill any monster 1/room. Why would you not like it? After all - it's not a competition, it's a team game - and you'd have an equal opportunity to play Fighter.

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Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #39

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Can I suppose something else to everyone? What does it matter if the Druid is or is not overpowered? This isn't a competition. If the druid does or doesn't do more damage than another class it they don't get anything special for it. The party gets damage on the monster. That party doesn't get anything over another party. Anyone has the opportunity to play the Druid (though your opportunity may be less if you are not at least 3rd level but that is a different thread).

Sure you can argue during token design that some character shouldn't get access to a token for power reasons. But if Jeff does want to make the Druid the most powerful or the least, why argue with each other about its power level? This happens again and again but it does achieve anything arguing with each other if it is or isn't overpowered.

Sorry maybe I am just grumble and will not read this topic for awhile. Someone let me know if any changes to focus are made because that is what I care about.


I don't think it matters that much, I mainly react when people try to claim that Wizards are overpowered. When this claim is made, it's usually coupled with the claim that Druids are not.

I find the "it's not a competition, it's a team game" argument uncompelling. I presume you would not like it if the Fighter legendary said: Auto-kill any monster 1/room. Why would you not like it? After all - it's not a competition, it's a team game - and you'd have an equal opportunity to play Fighter.


This just seems a bit ironic, because it seems when people argue that Wizards aren't overpowered, they usually seem to make the point that Druids are overpowered.

It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #40

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Can I suppose something else to everyone? What does it matter if the Druid is or is not overpowered? This isn't a competition. If the druid does or doesn't do more damage than another class it they don't get anything special for it. The party gets damage on the monster. That party doesn't get anything over another party. Anyone has the opportunity to play the Druid (though your opportunity may be less if you are not at least 3rd level but that is a different thread).

Sure you can argue during token design that some character shouldn't get access to a token for power reasons. But if Jeff does want to make the Druid the most powerful or the least, why argue with each other about its power level? This happens again and again but it does achieve anything arguing with each other if it is or isn't overpowered.

Sorry maybe I am just grumble and will not read this topic for awhile. Someone let me know if any changes to focus are made because that is what I care about.


I don't think it matters that much, I mainly react when people try to claim that Wizards are overpowered. When this claim is made, it's usually coupled with the claim that Druids are not.

I find the "it's not a competition, it's a team game" argument uncompelling. I presume you would not like it if the Fighter legendary said: Auto-kill any monster 1/room. Why would you not like it? After all - it's not a competition, it's a team game - and you'd have an equal opportunity to play Fighter.


This just seems a bit ironic, because it seems when people argue that Wizards aren't overpowered, they usually seem to make the point that Druids are overpowered.

It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.


If we can't agree on what overpowered means, we will never agree whether one class or another is or isn't.

Different perspectives on whether damage dealing makes one OP or not only cloud the discussion.

In the interest of getting back on topic, I love the idea of making "of Focus" items all work the same, and include all spellcasters (Including Ranger).

That said, there is a compelling argument not to change several older tokens, and simply adjust them going forward.

Here's hoping that, when class cards get redesigned, we get Paladins a spell as well!
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 

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Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #41

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Can I suppose something else to everyone? What does it matter if the Druid is or is not overpowered? This isn't a competition. If the druid does or doesn't do more damage than another class it they don't get anything special for it. The party gets damage on the monster. That party doesn't get anything over another party. Anyone has the opportunity to play the Druid (though your opportunity may be less if you are not at least 3rd level but that is a different thread).

Sure you can argue during token design that some character shouldn't get access to a token for power reasons. But if Jeff does want to make the Druid the most powerful or the least, why argue with each other about its power level? This happens again and again but it does achieve anything arguing with each other if it is or isn't overpowered.

Sorry maybe I am just grumble and will not read this topic for awhile. Someone let me know if any changes to focus are made because that is what I care about.


I don't think it matters that much, I mainly react when people try to claim that Wizards are overpowered. When this claim is made, it's usually coupled with the claim that Druids are not.

I find the "it's not a competition, it's a team game" argument uncompelling. I presume you would not like it if the Fighter legendary said: Auto-kill any monster 1/room. Why would you not like it? After all - it's not a competition, it's a team game - and you'd have an equal opportunity to play Fighter.


This just seems a bit ironic, because it seems when people argue that Wizards aren't overpowered, they usually seem to make the point that Druids are overpowered.

It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.


If we can't agree on what overpowered means, we will never agree whether one class or another is or isn't.

Different perspectives on whether damage dealing makes one OP or not only cloud the discussion.

In the interest of getting back on topic, I love the idea of making "of Focus" items all work the same, and include all spellcasters (Including Ranger).

That said, there is a compelling argument not to change several older tokens, and simply adjust them going forward.

Here's hoping that, when class cards get redesigned, we get Paladins a spell as well!


In general I agree consistency would be nice. On the other hand, I like that the Batons and Staffs of Focus were different, and I could see possibilities that similar situations might occur in the future.

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Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #42

Matthew Hayward wrote: I find the "it's not a competition, it's a team game" argument uncompelling. I presume you would not like it if the Fighter legendary said: Auto-kill any monster 1/room. Why would you not like it? After all - it's not a competition, it's a team game - and you'd have an equal opportunity to play Fighter.


The token is overpowered. The fighter is not. I distinctly said that power when discussing token design makes sense to me.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #43

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I find the "it's not a competition, it's a team game" argument uncompelling. I presume you would not like it if the Fighter legendary said: Auto-kill any monster 1/room. Why would you not like it? After all - it's not a competition, it's a team game - and you'd have an equal opportunity to play Fighter.


The token is overpowered. The fighter is not. I distinctly said that power when discussing token design makes sense to me.


I imagine there will be a lot of "this class is overpowered" discussions as we redo the character cards. :)

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Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #44

Mike Steele wrote: It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.


Wrong. You kicked it off one post before that, when you suggested that Druids should be made more powerful by making all focus items apply to polymorph.

I think the question of what focus should do is Linked inextricably to the relative power of the classes involved, and the others as well. Wade is right, without a clear measure of what “power” means, we’ll never agree.

But sure, we can drop it.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #45

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Can I suppose something else to everyone? What does it matter if the Druid is or is not overpowered? This isn't a competition. If the druid does or doesn't do more damage than another class it they don't get anything special for it. The party gets damage on the monster. That party doesn't get anything over another party. Anyone has the opportunity to play the Druid (though your opportunity may be less if you are not at least 3rd level but that is a different thread).

Sure you can argue during token design that some character shouldn't get access to a token for power reasons. But if Jeff does want to make the Druid the most powerful or the least, why argue with each other about its power level? This happens again and again but it does achieve anything arguing with each other if it is or isn't overpowered.

Sorry maybe I am just grumble and will not read this topic for awhile. Someone let me know if any changes to focus are made because that is what I care about.


I don't think it matters that much, I mainly react when people try to claim that Wizards are overpowered. When this claim is made, it's usually coupled with the claim that Druids are not.

I find the "it's not a competition, it's a team game" argument uncompelling. I presume you would not like it if the Fighter legendary said: Auto-kill any monster 1/room. Why would you not like it? After all - it's not a competition, it's a team game - and you'd have an equal opportunity to play Fighter.


This just seems a bit ironic, because it seems when people argue that Wizards aren't overpowered, they usually seem to make the point that Druids are overpowered.

It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.


I see what you mean - the ground I’m trying to defend is:


If wizards are op, so are druids.

Or, equivalently:

If druids are not op, neither are wizards.

I just reject the claim that wizards are op but druids aren’t.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #46

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.


Wrong. You kicked it off one post before that, when you suggested that Druids should be made more powerful by making all focus items apply to polymorph.


Wizards polymorph as well. Adding polymorph to future Focus tokens increases polymorphed Wizard damage as much as it does polymorphed Druid damage.

Edit: That seemed to be the point of the thread. If we want consistency on future focus tokens, it seems a given that they will have damage and healing bonuses. The main question seems to be if they'll have polymorph bonuses. My vote is yes.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #47

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.


Wrong. You kicked it off one post before that, when you suggested that Druids should be made more powerful by making all focus items apply to polymorph.


Wizards polymorph as well. Adding polymorph to future Focus tokens increases polymorphed Wizard damage as much as it does polymorphed Druid damage.


Right, but Wizards aren’t one of the top two healers, are they?

You can’t just cherrypick, and look at each thing in isolation. You have to look at the whole picture.

And, in all my years of DMing, I’ve never seen a Wizard polymorph. Their starting STR is so low, they have better things to do.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Consistency of Focus Items 4 years 7 months ago #48

I'm chopping up the post quite a bit here to keep things, hopefully, readable.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Your insistence that the Druid is in last place in a variety of categories where it is clearly not substantially undercuts both your argument, and my desire to attempt productive dialog on this topic with you.

You might have a point here, but "druids are last at X" is hyperbolic and does not advance your position.

Honestly, its no more insincere than saying "druids are 3rd best offensive spell caster" when 9 classes don't really do offensive spells.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Druid is last (3rd place) for spell damage behind both wizards, as no one is actually counting Cleric or Bard as spell damage dealers. Wizards don't have their legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.


BiS Druids deal 95% of the spell damage as Wizards while also maintaining an awesome repertoire of spell healing, massive melee damage bonuses and an expanded crit range due to polymorph, and many other benefits.

That 95% spell damage presumes spell swapping all heals to offensive spells, correct? So to get to that 95%, we must presume 0 healing, and we must reduce poly effectiveness by, at minimum fitting +5 and +3 focus rings in addition to SRoEC (thus removing gloves of brute).

Matthew Hayward wrote:

The Druid is the last place healer, unless you're counting the Bard, (given the effectiveness of Soothe wounds, I'm not certain the Druid exceeds the Bard). Cleric is a better healer, but IF you already have a Cleric and the Cleric isn't enough healing for the group, and you don't use restore spell on Soothe wounds, you can boost the Druid to be better than the Cleric..,.. which you probably don't need because you already have a Cleric. The Cleric does not have it's legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.


There are 3 healing spell healing classes (I'm not counting 5th level Ranger), you claim Druid is 2nd of three. Last place would be 3rd of three.

With Charm of Spell Swapping 5th level Clerics and Druids get, in terms of max healing:

Cleric: 6 cure minor, 5 cure light, 3 cure moderate, 1 cure serious.
Druids: 7 cure minor, 5 cure light, 4 cure moderate, one of which is doubled.

It is not clear that Druids are not the #1 healer at UR+ gearing levels.

Presuming the same +heal amount, I believe the doubled cure moderate wounds should push the druid ahead of the Cleric in HP gained, especially if you don't count Restore power / restore spell since those require a partner so to speak. I can see how we could get to Druid as potentially the #1 healer, and I can concede that point.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.


You should maybe post some builds.

2019 Barbarian BiS build, +22 hit, +41 damage.
Key items (which I believe are all usable by Fighters and Paladin, but numbers shift a bit)
*Redoubt Set (alternatively, replace redoubt helm with Crown of Might or Helm of the Boar, and tweak armor to Nether Brute Armor)
*+5 Deathcleaver
*Str neck (either stu's or valhalla)
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Dracolitch, Greater onyx, Fiendish
*SRoEC, Ring of the Eel
*Gauntlets of Linked Fury
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Blessed Strength
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, Infernal Fire, (Onyx Sphere if you break redoubt set)
*Ro7P

2019 Druid BiS build, +18 hit, +35 damage in poly
Key Items
*Iktomi's
*Crown of Might
*+5 Baton of Focus, Brawlers Horn
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Greater onyx, Spell Swapping, Brooching (could become dracolitch, but then the barb has better saves)
*SRoEC, +5 ring of Focus, +3 Ring of Focus
*Gloves of Glory
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Focus
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, IS Onyx Sphere, Infernal Fire
*Gregor's Tome of Focus
*Ro7P

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