TOPIC: Consistency of Focus Items

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.

No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.

MasterED wrote: I respect Cranston's concern over the character apps.

My personal feeling is this change is not needed because I agree with Matthew - the token's clearly state their abilities. If we do issue a Focus keyword (+1 focus) then we can consider an adjustment.

Ed

+1

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.

No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.

At BiS my 2019 numbers had Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian in the top 3.

With huge boosts to Monk and Barbarian in 2020 this is unlikely to change.

Wizards with 4, 5 and Spell Druid was 7. The gap between Wizard and Spell Druid was: 13 points over the course of the dungeon (388 vs 375).

5th level Druids compared with 5th level Wizards also get:
+9 HP
+4 Fort
+1 ReFX
+4 Will
+2 STR
+2 DEX
Better weapons and armor
1 more second level spell
1 more third level spell

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - and I’d prefer poly be removed from all focus items. It never made sense me that poly damage includes focus and STR - feels very double-dipping, and contributes to the class being OP.

That or, as a second choice, add Turning.

+1 to both

I'm not sure where this "Druid is overpowered" narrative is coming from. There have been several detailed damage comparisons done recently, and I don't think the Druid has ever been near the top of them. Monk / Ranger / Wizards always seem near the top, as far as I can recall.

Druid has ALWAYS been overpowered (much more so in the early days).

It was because Druid had a special place in Jeff's heart so he treated it especially well.

And some Druid players (like you) consistently try to downplay the power level of the Druid.

BTW: Overpowered isn't simply defined by damage output.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.

No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.

At BiS my 2019 numbers had Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian in the top 3.

Wizards with 4, 5 and Spell Druid was 7. The gap between Wizard and Spell Druid was: 13 points over the course of the dungeon (388 vs 375).

5th level Druids compared with 5th level Wizards also get:
+9 HP
+4 Fort
+1 ReFX
+4 Will
+2 STR
+2 DEX
Better weapons and armor
1 more second level spell
1 more third level spell

So, the Druid is the seventh best at dealing damage out of 12 classes. That doesn't seem overpowered to me. And the Wizards don't have their class specific legendary yet, which will probably increase the gap between Wizard and Druid.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.

No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.

At BiS my 2019 numbers had Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian in the top 3.

Wizards with 4, 5 and Spell Druid was 7. The gap between Wizard and Spell Druid was: 13 points over the course of the dungeon (388 vs 375).

5th level Druids compared with 5th level Wizards also get:
+9 HP
+4 Fort
+1 ReFX
+4 Will
+2 STR
+2 DEX
Better weapons and armor
1 more second level spell
1 more third level spell

So, the Druid is the seventh best at dealing damage out of 12 classes. That doesn't seem overpowered to me. And the Wizards don't have their class specific legendary yet, which will probably increase the gap between Wizard and Druid.

If damage dealing is the ONLY metric you use, sure, they aren't.
Again, versatility, options, other things that Matthew and Eric mentioned all show the power of the Druid (and that doesn't mention the eldritch benefits before the recent changes).

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.

No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.

At BiS my 2019 numbers had Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian in the top 3.

Wizards with 4, 5 and Spell Druid was 7. The gap between Wizard and Spell Druid was: 13 points over the course of the dungeon (388 vs 375).

5th level Druids compared with 5th level Wizards also get:
+9 HP
+4 Fort
+1 ReFX
+4 Will
+2 STR
+2 DEX
Better weapons and armor
1 more second level spell
1 more third level spell

So, the Druid is the seventh best at dealing damage out of 12 classes. That doesn't seem overpowered to me. And the Wizards don't have their class specific legendary yet, which will probably increase the gap between Wizard and Druid.

If damage dealing is the ONLY metric you use, sure, they aren't.
Again, versatility, options, other things that Matthew and Eric mentioned all show the power of the Druid (and that doesn't mention the eldritch benefits before the recent changes).

While I haven't done the math, if what I'm reading is completely accurate, I'm not sure it says a lot to be near last in a bunch of different roles. Typically, that just means its best to take a different character that specializes in a specific role and actually does the job really well instead of 2 jobs poorly.

Endgame wrote: While I haven't done the math, if what I'm reading is completely accurate, I'm not sure it says a lot to be near last in a bunch of different roles. Typically, that just means its best to take a different character that specializes in a specific role and actually does the job really well instead of 2 jobs poorly.

Except that both damage and healing spells benefit from focus, making the druid quite an excellent spell damage dealer (with up to rare wands as well through MoMM) and healing after the combat rounds are over.

Ultimately it's a great, strong class with many options and ways to build. It's a lot of fun, and quite powerful.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.

No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.

At BiS my 2019 numbers had Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian in the top 3.

With huge boosts to Monk and Barbarian in 2020 this is unlikely to change.

Wizards with 4, 5 and Spell Druid was 7. The gap between Wizard and Spell Druid was: 13 points over the course of the dungeon (388 vs 375).

5th level Druids compared with 5th level Wizards also get:
+9 HP
+4 Fort
+1 ReFX
+4 Will
+2 STR
+2 DEX
Better weapons and armor
1 more second level spell
1 more third level spell

As a curiosity what are your metrics for sliding weapons hitting?

Also are your calculations using the Mad Evoker Charm on every spell cast?
Is the Druid calculation using Restore Power on the Druid's doubling ability and spending it on their biggest spell twice?

Just curiosities on how the numbers were calculated, I definitely do not disagree with the analysis that Druid is an Overpowered class

Endgame wrote: [
While I haven't done the math, if what I'm reading is completely accurate, I'm not sure it says a lot to be near last in a bunch of different roles. Typically, that just means its best to take a different character that specializes in a specific role and actually does the job really well instead of 2 jobs poorly.

You're right that being last in a bunch of roles isn't great.

Druids, however, are:
* the 2nd best healer (actually - you can build them to out-heal Clerics if you want)
* the 2nd best direct spell damage dealer (no slide spells, built in spell surge)
* a very strong melee fighter via Polymorph (highest melee damage mod in the game before the 2020 Barbarian neck - it might still be higher, I haven't run the math)
* 2nd best saves in the game
* Tied for highest CON in the game
* Better combat stats than Bard, Cleric, Paladin, and Wizard.
* More HP than Bard, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard

I struggle to think of any category that they are on the bottom third of.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.

No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.

At BiS my 2019 numbers had Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian in the top 3.

With huge boosts to Monk and Barbarian in 2020 this is unlikely to change.

Wizards with 4, 5 and Spell Druid was 7. The gap between Wizard and Spell Druid was: 13 points over the course of the dungeon (388 vs 375).

5th level Druids compared with 5th level Wizards also get:
+9 HP
+4 Fort
+1 ReFX
+4 Will
+2 STR
+2 DEX
Better weapons and armor
1 more second level spell
1 more third level spell

As a curiosity what are your metrics for sliding weapons hitting?

Also are your calculations using the Mad Evoker Charm on every spell cast?
Is the Druid calculation using Restore Power on the Druid's doubling ability and spending it on their biggest spell twice?

Just curiosities on how the numbers were calculated, I definitely do not disagree with the analysis that Druid is an Overpowered class

At the BiS level I have the Wizard spell swap into Magic Missile to avoid slide spells.

I believe I use MeC on either 1 spell per room or maybe L1+ spells. Definitely not every spell.

The spell druid total uses Spell Surge on their big spell, but doesn't include restore power.

In general I compute each class on it's own - as if two classes are cooperating to do X I don't find it helpful to say "class 1 did 5/6 X and class 2 did 1/6 X."

Wise analysis