TOPIC: Token Gainers and Losers in the 2020 Design Race

Endgame wrote: Lol, agreed, and that doesn't count all the keys im obligated to buy

Obligated? Why?

Endgame wrote:

Flik wrote:

Endgame wrote: Biggest loser to me in the set is blessed Redoubt. Lucky set trades 3AC at torso and shield for +2 all saves at a substantially lower price. The flexibly to fit any helm you want is a big bonus as well.

It is a bummer that I acquired Blessed Redoubt this year before Origins (upgrade from Templar set I got last year). If I would have held out a couple of months I would have gotten the Lucky set for a fraction of the price. No doubt Blessed Redoubt is better overall but for ~$1000 for the set you can get ten PYPs.

Looking at Trent Tokens right now, you could pickup Perns Redoubt helm for roughly the price of the blessed Redoubt set, and get enough credit to get a ur for free. That would push the ac of lucky +perns to the same as blessed Redoubt. You would get the hp boost from the lucky set, so the only question is, how much do you want that 2str vs +2 all saves?

This is a good point. If the AC of Perns plus Lucky is as good as Redoubt and you get the HP and saves vs. just giving up the strength then it seems broken to me. Hopefully it gets toned down.

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Flik wrote:

Endgame wrote: Biggest loser to me in the set is blessed Redoubt. Lucky set trades 3AC at torso and shield for +2 all saves at a substantially lower price. The flexibly to fit any helm you want is a big bonus as well.

It is a bummer that I acquired Blessed Redoubt this year before Origins (upgrade from Templar set I got last year). If I would have held out a couple of months I would have gotten the Lucky set for a fraction of the price. No doubt Blessed Redoubt is better overall but for ~$1000 for the set you can get ten PYPs.

Looking at Trent Tokens right now, you could pickup Perns Redoubt helm for roughly the price of the blessed Redoubt set, and get enough credit to get a ur for free. That would push the ac of lucky +perns to the same as blessed Redoubt. You would get the hp boost from the lucky set, so the only question is, how much do you want that 2str vs +2 all saves?

This is a good point. If the AC of Perns plus Lucky is as good as Redoubt and you get the HP and saves vs. just giving up the strength then it seems broken to me. Hopefully it gets toned down.

You also don't need to keep Pern's in the build to get the hp bonus, so you can mix and match to taste based on adventure.

Playing Dwarf fighter or paladin? Run lucky +Perns. Running a bard or druid? Lucky shield is higher AC than either class has available elsewhere, and you can still keep the hp bonus and grab any helm you like.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote: Lol, agreed, and that doesn't count all the keys im obligated to buy

Obligated? Why?

The key is just that broken good. I was working out a way to get Bot4W right before the first 2020 token preview hit to net me another 4 healing. For less than half the price of the boots, I can not only net myself that +4 healing for my party, but all of their healing gets better too. On top of that, it doesn't compromise anyone's build to use the keys.

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote: Lol, agreed, and that doesn't count all the keys im obligated to buy

Obligated? Why?

The key is just that broken good. I was working out a way to get Bot4W right before the first 2020 token preview hit to net me another 4 healing. For less than half the price of the boots, I can not only net myself that +4 healing for my party, but all of their healing gets better too. On top of that, it doesn't compromise anyone's build to use the keys.

Boots are so flexible, though...If you get bumped off of Cleric and run your Paladin backup, do you still have the same feel-good handing out the keys?

Secondary question - do you have a Kilt of Dungeonbane?

I thought of a dark horse loser: Bead of the Lucky Traveler.

I had always thought this would be better in the Ioun slot as your 5th best Ioun is less likely to be better than BotLT than your best bead, giving the token some longevity.

With the new Skull ensuring that Ioun Stone Amethyst Ovoid is not great unless you know you are going up against a mindflayer, and with much easier access to 7, or even 9 iouns it seems to me BotLT would have a much firmer place in builds as an Ioun.

As it is, its days are numbered till we get a UR +2 melee damage bead in a year or three.

Maybe we’ll get an “Ioun if Bead holding” allowing you to swap an Ioun for a bead before then...

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote: Lol, agreed, and that doesn't count all the keys im obligated to buy

Obligated? Why?

The key is just that broken good. I was working out a way to get Bot4W right before the first 2020 token preview hit to net me another 4 healing. For less than half the price of the boots, I can not only net myself that +4 healing for my party, but all of their healing gets better too. On top of that, it doesn't compromise anyone's build to use the keys.

Boots are so flexible, though...If you get bumped off of Cleric and run your Paladin backup, do you still have the same feel-good handing out the keys?

Secondary question - do you have a Kilt of Dungeonbane?

Yes, I've got the kilt, so I could level up with the boots. I'd still probably use my whole charming set though - I was going to ditch the charming ring if I got the boots, but now the charm of glory gets rid of that decision.

I'm also concerned about the extra damage the boots cause. Everyone in the group loves to slide, and I can safely say they would rather risk timing out in a combat than killing the monster in one round.

With that in mind, we are generally running about +12 - +15 to hit, and +8 to +14 damage. If I put the boots on my backup fighter build I'd be at +22 Damage and would really be eclipsing everyone else. Even my cleric would be up to +12. We would up the difficulty if we could, but we have had brand new players in every run we've ever done.

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote: Lol, agreed, and that doesn't count all the keys im obligated to buy

Obligated? Why?

The key is just that broken good. I was working out a way to get Bot4W right before the first 2020 token preview hit to net me another 4 healing. For less than half the price of the boots, I can not only net myself that +4 healing for my party, but all of their healing gets better too. On top of that, it doesn't compromise anyone's build to use the keys.

How are 10 Keys less than half the price of a Bot4W? I think they're probably both in the $1100 range. I'm assuming you're calculating the +4 healing for the keys by using a LoDS.

Even that free healing, at only +2 the Keys are pretty low on my "to buy" list, there are just too many overpowered tokens in this set that are higher.

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote: Lol, agreed, and that doesn't count all the keys im obligated to buy

Obligated? Why?

The key is just that broken good. I was working out a way to get Bot4W right before the first 2020 token preview hit to net me another 4 healing. For less than half the price of the boots, I can not only net myself that +4 healing for my party, but all of their healing gets better too. On top of that, it doesn't compromise anyone's build to use the keys.

How are 10 Keys less than half the price of a Bot4W? I think they're probably both in the $1100 range. I'm assuming you're calculating the +4 healing for the keys by using a LoDS.

Even that free healing, at only +2 the Keys are pretty low on my "to buy" list, there are just too many overpowered tokens in this set that are higher.

I'm likely only going to be buying 5 keys myself. 3 of the other guys are in for buying their own, so that way I'll cover the largest group we have ever run with keys. That does mean that for 2 poor pugs, they will be worse off than if I bought the boots, but I'll take that trade off.

That is one of the best things about the keys for healing - my party wasnt going to buy shares of the boots, but some of them will buy their own keys.

And now it is time to revamp 50-70% of this thread... Key is a Charm, Monk Legendary is nerfed. Icecrag still loses out...

Xavon wrote: And now it is time to revamp 50-70% of this thread... Key is a Charm, Monk Legendary is nerfed. Icecrag still loses out...

Ehh. Here I'm focusing on the changes to older tokens due to this years. The new updates don't really touch anything but GoFF, which people didn't seem to agree belonged on the "Losers" list anyhow.

I guess the Lucky Shield ding puts some life back into Redoubt - but I value saves more than most.

I'd take +3 AC and +1 saves over +5 AC any day.