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TOPIC: Can we play Hardcore yet?

Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #13

Matthew Hayward wrote: Dealing damage:

OK with Bardsong and/or Cleric Bless/Prayer:
Barbarian
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Ranger
Rogue
Wizard (assuming spell attacks)

The rest will struggle to hit even on high-ish slides like 15.

Avoiding insta-kill / lose a round of combat / force polymorph into a mongoose (e.g. saves)

Likely to miss FORT saves: Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard
Likely to miss RFLX saves: Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Wizard
Likely to miss WILL saves: Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard

FORT/WILL failures tend to kill out / take you out of combat. Failed RFLX saves tend to make you take lots of damage or have an ongoing hindering effect.

Not getting punched in the face:

Approximate odds of getting hit by a monster attack that uses AC (increasing AC by 1 will reduce this by 5% to a minimum of 5%)

Barbarian: 55%
Bard: 45%
Cleric: 15%
Druid: 35%
Fighter: 45%
Monk: 60%
Paladin: 35%
Ranger: 45%
Rogue: 55%
Wizard: 80% (Paladin is guarding, right?)

Remember, there are 10 party members, over the dungeon monsters might get 20 vs. AC attacks. Overdoing it on AC at the expense of saves or damage is not a great plan. Loki's Trickster Cap and Fae Starlight armor I would rather not use - the juice isn't worth the squeeze in my opinion.

Quick and cheap upgrades (no more than $5 per token:

- There are +1 to save earcuffs for each save
- In 2020 there will be a +1 AC, +1 saves neck item
- There are +4 to save rings for each save
- +2 Cloak of Resistance is amazing - I'd lose your cloak of many pockets for the lenses or crown depending on the build and get that (or Cloak of Painful Luck)

It appears to me many of your builds are tying to balance across melee and ranged attacks. I would focus on getting to ~+8 to hit in my preferred mode, then saves, then AC, and last but not least the other mode. Just make sure you have balance across the party of melee, spell, ranged damage dealers.

Looks like you've done a good job of filling in slots, which is good, and of paying attention to even stats.

If you have control over where the +1 levels go, I'd take it away from Ranger and give it to Bard. 5th level Bardsong gives +2/+2 instead of +1/+1.


Thanks for the analysis and tips. I have to ask though are saves really that important? Do they come up more at the Hardcore level? I feel like playing normal in the last few years those saves rarely come up.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #14

Matt Goodman wrote: If you haven't already, check out this post: https://truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=248885

I pulled this info out of it:
Stats to have:
Hardcore difficulty:
Preferred combat mode (melee or ranged) to hit bonus: +8-+18
AC: 22-32
FORT/RFLX/WILL Saves: 10-20

Keeping within these ranges will ensure you:
Hit on slides somewhere between 15+ (low end of range) and 5+ (high end of range).
Monster miss you around 50% of the time (low end of range) - 95% of the time (high end of range).
You make your saving throw around 50% of the time (low end of range) - 95% of the time (high end of range).


Thanks, I checked out the post. It seems crazy that the stats really need to be that high to play Hardcore. Looking at the uncommonly good tokens, we do have a bunch of those.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #15

Michelle wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Dealing damage:

OK with Bardsong and/or Cleric Bless/Prayer:
Barbarian
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Ranger
Rogue
Wizard (assuming spell attacks)

The rest will struggle to hit even on high-ish slides like 15.

Avoiding insta-kill / lose a round of combat / force polymorph into a mongoose (e.g. saves)

Likely to miss FORT saves: Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard
Likely to miss RFLX saves: Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Wizard
Likely to miss WILL saves: Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard

FORT/WILL failures tend to kill out / take you out of combat. Failed RFLX saves tend to make you take lots of damage or have an ongoing hindering effect.

Not getting punched in the face:

Approximate odds of getting hit by a monster attack that uses AC (increasing AC by 1 will reduce this by 5% to a minimum of 5%)

Barbarian: 55%
Bard: 45%
Cleric: 15%
Druid: 35%
Fighter: 45%
Monk: 60%
Paladin: 35%
Ranger: 45%
Rogue: 55%
Wizard: 80% (Paladin is guarding, right?)

Remember, there are 10 party members, over the dungeon monsters might get 20 vs. AC attacks. Overdoing it on AC at the expense of saves or damage is not a great plan. Loki's Trickster Cap and Fae Starlight armor I would rather not use - the juice isn't worth the squeeze in my opinion.

Quick and cheap upgrades (no more than $5 per token:

- There are +1 to save earcuffs for each save
- In 2020 there will be a +1 AC, +1 saves neck item
- There are +4 to save rings for each save
- +2 Cloak of Resistance is amazing - I'd lose your cloak of many pockets for the lenses or crown depending on the build and get that (or Cloak of Painful Luck)

It appears to me many of your builds are tying to balance across melee and ranged attacks. I would focus on getting to ~+8 to hit in my preferred mode, then saves, then AC, and last but not least the other mode. Just make sure you have balance across the party of melee, spell, ranged damage dealers.

Looks like you've done a good job of filling in slots, which is good, and of paying attention to even stats.

If you have control over where the +1 levels go, I'd take it away from Ranger and give it to Bard. 5th level Bardsong gives +2/+2 instead of +1/+1.


Thanks for the analysis and tips. I have to ask though are saves really that important? Do they come up more at the Hardcore level? I feel like playing normal in the last few years those saves rarely come up.


I feel like there is 1 room a dungeon where there is a save and the consequences are pretty bad (miss a round in combat, be put to sleep).

Last year there was an Ice Dragon and an Ogre mage which attacks you had to save against.

It's been a while since I ran normal, so I'm not sure whether the save based attacks are introduced at HC.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #16

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Michelle wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Dealing damage:

OK with Bardsong and/or Cleric Bless/Prayer:
Barbarian
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Ranger
Rogue
Wizard (assuming spell attacks)

The rest will struggle to hit even on high-ish slides like 15.

Avoiding insta-kill / lose a round of combat / force polymorph into a mongoose (e.g. saves)

Likely to miss FORT saves: Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard
Likely to miss RFLX saves: Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Wizard
Likely to miss WILL saves: Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard

FORT/WILL failures tend to kill out / take you out of combat. Failed RFLX saves tend to make you take lots of damage or have an ongoing hindering effect.

Not getting punched in the face:

Approximate odds of getting hit by a monster attack that uses AC (increasing AC by 1 will reduce this by 5% to a minimum of 5%)

Barbarian: 55%
Bard: 45%
Cleric: 15%
Druid: 35%
Fighter: 45%
Monk: 60%
Paladin: 35%
Ranger: 45%
Rogue: 55%
Wizard: 80% (Paladin is guarding, right?)

Remember, there are 10 party members, over the dungeon monsters might get 20 vs. AC attacks. Overdoing it on AC at the expense of saves or damage is not a great plan. Loki's Trickster Cap and Fae Starlight armor I would rather not use - the juice isn't worth the squeeze in my opinion.

Quick and cheap upgrades (no more than $5 per token:

- There are +1 to save earcuffs for each save
- In 2020 there will be a +1 AC, +1 saves neck item
- There are +4 to save rings for each save
- +2 Cloak of Resistance is amazing - I'd lose your cloak of many pockets for the lenses or crown depending on the build and get that (or Cloak of Painful Luck)

It appears to me many of your builds are tying to balance across melee and ranged attacks. I would focus on getting to ~+8 to hit in my preferred mode, then saves, then AC, and last but not least the other mode. Just make sure you have balance across the party of melee, spell, ranged damage dealers.

Looks like you've done a good job of filling in slots, which is good, and of paying attention to even stats.

If you have control over where the +1 levels go, I'd take it away from Ranger and give it to Bard. 5th level Bardsong gives +2/+2 instead of +1/+1.


Thanks for the analysis and tips. I have to ask though are saves really that important? Do they come up more at the Hardcore level? I feel like playing normal in the last few years those saves rarely come up.


It's not that they tend to come up more it's that they're back breakers when they do.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #17

Ian Lee wrote: Low Will saves are rather common. I'd look to move away from saves killers over time. Rogue attack bonuses are low.

I like the emphasis on hp as hp almost always matter.

Inspiration on cleric is odd. Cleric and druid could use a lot more healing. Linked Shirt of Healing is huge.

Get bard to level 5. Bard and spellcasters gain the most from leveling.


Yeah, we do have a bit of an issue where we have some really good players who know what they are doing and can handle a lot of complexity and some people who only do one run with us a year and can't. Imbalances like that a due to me trying to keep some of the characters they tend play as simple as possible.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #18

Michelle wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: If you haven't already, check out this post: https://truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=248885

I pulled this info out of it:
Stats to have:
Hardcore difficulty:
Preferred combat mode (melee or ranged) to hit bonus: +8-+18
AC: 22-32
FORT/RFLX/WILL Saves: 10-20

Keeping within these ranges will ensure you:
Hit on slides somewhere between 15+ (low end of range) and 5+ (high end of range).
Monster miss you around 50% of the time (low end of range) - 95% of the time (high end of range).
You make your saving throw around 50% of the time (low end of range) - 95% of the time (high end of range).


Thanks, I checked out the post. It seems crazy that the stats really need to be that high to play Hardcore. Looking at the uncommonly good tokens, we do have a bunch of those.


I think the minimum part of that range is fine for HC, as long as you have some decent healing, and are reasonable sliders.

I thought I was going to be able to write bunch more, but after studying your barbarian build for a while, I'm not sure there are that many cheap upgrades. And that's how I know you're ready for HC.

But - I imported your base character from the xls into tdcharactercreator.com (my preferred generator).

Your current build is here:

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/4631b507-1b10-4e46-8687-548c108601bb

And here's some minor upgrades:

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/928dba24-a3e7-4ca0-8582-2927ca1095de

What I've changed:
1) Swap Bezoar charm for Fiendish Charm. Yeah, it costs you some HP, but it's +1/+1. I love the Fiendish charm. You should be able to get one for about $5, and I might even have a spare if I can find it.

2) Swap goggles of seeking for Lenses of Heimdall Sight. A rare from last year, probably $2-$3 or, again, someone probably has an extra.

3) Swap earcuff of understanding for earcuff of crenellations. Since you have a bard, this is a useful amount of DR on HC. Kirk has one for sale for $1.95.

4) Exalted creeper amulet for necklace of the birch. I'm very 'meh' here, couldn't figure out a better item, but I think that (very nice) amulet would be better used by one of your ranged classes.

5) Swap Fae Starlight armor for Infernal Hate Plate. Rare from this year, should be easy to find.

6) Swap belt of endurance for belt of ogre power. Another rare from this year, should be easy to find.

Things I'm still not thrilled about: The pants, the shoes. I couldn't find a cheap upgrade for either though.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #19

Braxton wrote: I think the minimum part of that range is fine for HC, as long as you have some decent healing, and are reasonable sliders.

I thought I was going to be able to write bunch more, but after studying your barbarian build for a while, I'm not sure there are that many cheap upgrades. And that's how I know you're ready for HC.

But - I imported your base character from the xls into tdcharactercreator.com (my preferred generator).

Your current build is here:

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/4631b507-1b10-4e46-8687-548c108601bb

And here's some minor upgrades:

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/928dba24-a3e7-4ca0-8582-2927ca1095de

What I've changed:
1) Swap Bezoar charm for Fiendish Charm. Yeah, it costs you some HP, but it's +1/+1. I love the Fiendish charm. You should be able to get one for about $5, and I might even have a spare if I can find it.

2) Swap goggles of seeking for Lenses of Heimdall Sight. A rare from last year, probably $2-$3 or, again, someone probably has an extra.

3) Swap earcuff of understanding for earcuff of crenellations. Since you have a bard, this is a useful amount of DR on HC. Kirk has one for sale for $1.95.

4) Exalted creeper amulet for necklace of the birch. I'm very 'meh' here, couldn't figure out a better item, but I think that (very nice) amulet would be better used by one of your ranged classes.

5) Swap Fae Starlight armor for Infernal Hate Plate. Rare from this year, should be easy to find.

6) Swap belt of endurance for belt of ogre power. Another rare from this year, should be easy to find.

Things I'm still not thrilled about: The pants, the shoes. I couldn't find a cheap upgrade for either though.


Thanks for your analysis and suggestions. I do have a few of those tokens, so I should be able to make a few swaps right away and can work on tracking down some of the others.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #20

Matthew Hayward wrote: It's been a while since I ran normal, so I'm not sure whether the save based attacks are introduced at HC.


There are definitely saves on Normal. It’s very rare for mechanics to change across difficulties - it’s usually just a numbers increase. From five years of combat DMing, the one mechanic that stands out is spell resistance, which usually follows a 0% / 50% / 75% progression. Then again, I haven’t seen a 2019 module yet (I was in N3 at Origins), so I don’t know that the eldritch set changes have done to that.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #21

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Heya,

I’m going to ask you a non-token question before answering whether you are ready:

How do you & your party feel about being killed in the dungeon?

If the answer is: “it ruins our game. We paid $80 to experience the whole dungeon, and if one of us has to sit out a room it absolutely sucks!” Then you probably want to think hard about making sure you have optimal gear for HC.

If your answer is more: “I love the adrenaline rush of knowing how close we came! Only 3 of us survived to the final room, and then it was a TPK, but we all loved it! it was absolutely worth it!!!” Then you are ready. No gear swap-outs necessary.

Myself, I like to run the same dungeon 2 or 3 times, so it doesn’t bother me if I die. I’ll happily play at a level much harder than I should. My current favorite mode is Nightmare Double-Down (5 person run) where we’re geared to pretty decent UR builds with some Relics thrown in, but definitely not BIS legendary builds. We do occasionally die in the dungeon. Then we go out for dinner and talk about how we can do it again more successfully next time!

(FYI, it’s usually the puzzles which kill us, not the monsters. Some puzzles are absolutely brutal with only 5 players)
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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #22

Raven wrote: Heya,

I’m going to ask you a non-token question before answering whether you are ready:

How do you & your party feel about being killed in the dungeon?

If the answer is: “it ruins our game. We paid $80 to experience the whole dungeon, and if one of us has to sit out a room it absolutely sucks!” Then you probably want to think hard about making sure you have optimal gear for HC.

If your answer is more: “I love the adrenaline rush of knowing how close we came! Only 3 of us survived to the final room, and then it was a TPK, but we all loved it! it was absolutely worth it!!!” Then you are ready. No gear swap-outs necessary.

Myself, I like to run the same dungeon 2 or 3 times, so it doesn’t bother me if I die. I’ll happily play at a level much harder than I should. My current favorite mode is Nightmare Double-Down (5 person run) where we’re geared to pretty decent UR builds with some Relics thrown in, but definitely not BIS legendary builds. We do occasionally die in the dungeon. Then we go out for dinner and talk about how we can do it again more successfully next time!

(FYI, it’s usually the puzzles which kill us, not the monsters. Some puzzles are absolutely brutal with only 5 players)


I would say most of us are ok with dying if we make it to the last room. I think we'd be pretty bummed to die before that. We only do each run once, and some people only do one run with us, so having an overall "good experience" (some challenge, taking some damage, but not dying before the last room) is pretty important.

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #23

The more feedback I get the more I'm thinking Normal might be the way to go for my party, at least for this year. Your feedback has been extremely helpful in helping me understand where we need to get to stat-wise to be able to run Hardcore (more comfortably) and some ways to work on getting there. If you've got more tips and advise, keep it coming!

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Can we play Hardcore yet? 4 years 8 months ago #24

Michelle wrote: The more feedback I get the more I'm thinking Normal might be the way to go for my party, at least for this year. Your feedback has been extremely helpful in helping me understand where we need to get to stat-wise to be able to run Hardcore (more comfortably) and some ways to work on getting there. If you've got more tips and advise, keep it coming!


I looked at your Rogue build next, it looks pretty solid. I really don't think you should have trouble on HC.

Here's my rubric: Are you killing monsters in less than 3 rounds? Are you able to skip healing during combat? If the answer is yes to both, then it's too easy.

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