TOPIC: Power Creep Discussion

A massive overhaul of the system may be the best long term solution to the power creep issue for players at all levels. Right now players range from 4th level with very basic gear to 5th level "subclassed" with god-tier gear. Are there any RPGs out there (with XP) where a range like this is possible? Typically it would only happen with a terrible DM that doesn't understand how to reward properly. If True Dungeon had numerous levels with appropriate increases in gear power the game would be far more scalable and the difficulty could be predictable while still giving incentive to buy tokens.

Imagine slotless tokens to increase a player's level called XP tokens which are aquired via transmuting. For example the 5th level token recipe might be: any 5 rares and 10 uncommons. The recipe for the 6th level token might be a 5th level token plus 1 UR. The recipes would get progressively more expensive and could go as high up as needed. Having a XP token for X level would let a player play at that level. The stat and effect progression from level to level would be like any other RPG and could be clearly documented for better understanding by all players.

Given the XP token system above, True Dungeon run difficulty could be scaled to specific level groups (ie. 4th, 5th, 6th, etc.). This would make it much easier for a group of players to figure out what they could handle. If a group is all 5th level then they should play at 5th level difficult. If a PUG group has three 9th level characters and seven 6th level characters they could try for 7th level difficulty and all players could understand what that level of difficulty means.

Everyone loves weapons, armor, and equipment tokens. All of those could still exist with this system and so could the rarities. More powerful tokens could have minimum level requirements or stat requirements. Token requirements could prevent the problem True Dungeon has now of a normal difficulty player purchasing a token that is way too powerful for normal. This means every year powerful new tokens can be released with appropriate minimum requirements. All tokens have value because many need to be burned on XP tokens which are always an improvement for a player. There is probably a lot of opportunity for transmutes here, for example to go from a basic sword to a sword that requires 6th level.

The transition to this system would require figuring out where all existing tokens fit in the new system and a lot of tokens would need be replaced (similar to the couple URs replaced this year). It is also very important to preserve the monetary value of tokens in the secondary market as much as possible as a collapse would be bad for True Dungeon. Figuring out what level XP tokens current players should have would take some effort but might be a good way to preserve monetary value. The good thing is tokens people love could probably continue working more or less the same but re-scaled appropriately.

An unrelated parting thought, there are RPG systems out there like Traveller where the players don't level up and only get better gear. There must be some way difficulty is scaled in those so maybe that solution is better for the current state of True Dungeon.

In Traveller you increase skills with experience. And you can buy gear.

I would be pretty bummed at stat caps only at Gen Con. At Origins I can easily plan with people on the forums like I did this year to run Nightmare. I have a Nightmare Cleric and my wife/buddy have Hardcore+ Rogue/Barbarian.

Gen Con is so chaotic with the tickets. I spent 3+ hours crafting four wish lists to be identical (on four separate Gen Con accounts) and we all launched at noon and the soonest we got in line was like 5000+. We barely got a run of each module, but we did (and Grind!). We also have other events we crafted around these schedules. There is just no way to then head to the forums and try to find a group that needs four people for HC-NM that fits our already tight schedules. Maybe if I gambled and didn't book a single TD event I could have came to the forums and hit up every single person in the first day. That is incredibly risky and I might lose out on ALL TD by doing that.

I don't mind running normals at Gen Con (because I'm a Cleric who doesn't slide much anyways) and my wife's Rogue doesn't do insane damage at her build. We are respectful and don't ruin puzzles if we know them. And we've always had a blast. The only time we saw someone not having fun was on Into the Viper's Nest when they got stoned on Medusa (before the nerf later in the con).

Stat caps would be a pretty big bummer to enforce on us at Gen Con. I spend thousands and already am stuck in normal PUGs and now my stats are capped? I almost have no say at that con. If that happens I might seriously stop going to Gen Con, or at least stop playing TD there. And that is sad because it's the TD home convention. But in order to not play stat caps I'll have to go to PAX South where, like Origins, I can play on the forums (and get the rare to get completion tokens, lol).

Before resorting to stat caps there needs to be some fix to the Gen Con ticketing system. Some kind of software fix that makes it so Normal geared players are likely seeded together and vice versa for HC-NM. I don't know what that fix is but in this day and age we should be able to find some way to implement it.

Raven wrote:

jedibcg wrote: So the next planned epic run someone let me show up and say No we are playing normal.

I understand what you’re getting at here, but am gonna take it out of context for just a moment to say this:

If you showed up at a pre-planned Epic Run to tell me we’re all playing Normal, you bet there would be pitchforks! The run was built/billed as Epic - odds are one of us bought out the entire run to make sure we could control the difficulty - we all signed up to play together because we wanted to do Epic, and everyone discussed builds & agreed on classes... and you suddenly decide to be a prick and ruin our plans?!? Yeah, there’d be pitchforks.

But I know you aren’t talking about groups who have all agreed to a particular challenge, whether that’s Epic or Turkey Leg or 7-token challenge. I suspect you mean those individuals who show up to a run and expect that because they are equipped for X level, that everyone else has to play that way too. And if that level is Normal, and it’s a PUG, I think that’s fair. That’s already in the rules. But I don’t want to penalize the pre-planned groups just because some jerk thinks their enjoyment trumps the next guys’.

it could be a pre planned run though. 10 tickets are bought, plans are made and some drops out returning their ticket. Hopefully this would not happen but it could. the group decides to see if the can convince and equip the unknown person and still play epic. the get to con and the person won’t budge because they are a jerk or they just don’t want to. i 100% admit that I think it is less likely for a single new person to ruin the experience for a group of vets but it is possible with our current system. I am fine with that because I think it is so rare. Being told that you also could not use some of your tokens would be too much for me.

jedibcg wrote: it could be a pre planned run though. 10 tickets are bought, plans are made and some drops out returning their ticket. Hopefully this would not happen but it could. the group decides to see if the can convince and equip the unknown person and still play epic. the get to con and the person won’t budge because they are a jerk or they just don’t want to. i 100% admit that I think it is less likely for a single new person to ruin the experience for a group of vets but it is possible with our current system. I am fine with that because I think it is so rare. Being told that you also could not use some of your tokens would be too much for me.

Okay, I see your point. But the person I’d be pitchforking in that case wouldn’t be the newbie. It’d be our “friend” who returned the ticket without giving us a chance to cover his spot, and callously threw a wrench into our plans.

It’d really suck to be that newbie, tho, who got screwed over by the absentee-“friend” and dumped into a group of annoyed vets.

Raven wrote: Okay, I see your point. But the person I’d be pitchforking in that case wouldn’t be the newbie. It’d be our “friend” who returned the ticket without giving us a chance to cover his spot, and callously threw a wrench into our plans.

It’d really suck to be that newbie, tho, who got screwed over by the absentee-“friend” and dumped into a group of annoyed vets.

Maybe it is a sill hypothetical, that I can just keep making sillier. If you offered this newbie $20 bucks to play and they won't budge does it make them the bad guy? Though it doesn't really matter if they are the bad guy or a jerk or not. Just that they would have the power to turn off your tokens.

jedibcg wrote:

Raven wrote:

jedibcg wrote: So the next planned epic run someone let me show up and say No we are playing normal.

I understand what you’re getting at here, but am gonna take it out of context for just a moment to say this:

If you showed up at a pre-planned Epic Run to tell me we’re all playing Normal, you bet there would be pitchforks! The run was built/billed as Epic - odds are one of us bought out the entire run to make sure we could control the difficulty - we all signed up to play together because we wanted to do Epic, and everyone discussed builds & agreed on classes... and you suddenly decide to be a prick and ruin our plans?!? Yeah, there’d be pitchforks.

But I know you aren’t talking about groups who have all agreed to a particular challenge, whether that’s Epic or Turkey Leg or 7-token challenge. I suspect you mean those individuals who show up to a run and expect that because they are equipped for X level, that everyone else has to play that way too. And if that level is Normal, and it’s a PUG, I think that’s fair. That’s already in the rules. But I don’t want to penalize the pre-planned groups just because some jerk thinks their enjoyment trumps the next guys’.

it could be a pre planned run though. 10 tickets are bought, plans are made and some drops out returning their ticket. Hopefully this would not happen but it could. the group decides to see if the can convince and equip the unknown person and still play epic. the get to con and the person won’t budge because they are a jerk or they just don’t want to. i 100% admit that I think it is less likely for a single new person to ruin the experience for a group of vets but it is possible with our current system. I am fine with that because I think it is so rare. Being told that you also could not use some of your tokens would be too much for me.

This is what makes me nervous about e tickets. Or at least distributing via your “friends” list. If I buy out a run and have control of all the tickets, Jedis scenario can’t happen. Or if the person just doesn’t show up. I’ve had that happen on pre planned runs. If worse comes to worst, I just ghost the ticket if I have control of it.

Harlax wrote: This is what makes me nervous about e tickets. Or at least distributing via your “friends” list. If I buy out a run and have control of all the tickets, Jedis scenario can’t happen. Or if the person just doesn’t show up. I’ve had that happen on pre planned runs. If worse comes to worst, I just ghost the ticket if I have control of it.

You can hang onto e-tickets. You don't have to distribute them. This is either Gen Con or tdevents. I never send my group tickets out. They were attached to my badge last year and will be again this year. Makes it easier for just this scenario or when I have a last minute drop out and grab a random person from the lobby area to play.

jedibcg wrote:

Harlax wrote: This is what makes me nervous about e tickets. Or at least distributing via your “friends” list. If I buy out a run and have control of all the tickets, Jedis scenario can’t happen. Or if the person just doesn’t show up. I’ve had that happen on pre planned runs. If worse comes to worst, I just ghost the ticket if I have control of it.

You can hang onto e-tickets. You don't have to distribute them. This is either Gen Con or tdevents. I never send my group tickets out. They were attached to my badge last year and will be again this year. Makes it easier for just this scenario or when I have a last minute drop out and grab a random person from the lobby area to play.

i know. My group wants to take the approach of distributing. It makes me nervous.

Full Disclosure! I only skimmed as too much to read BUT...,,,.,...
It seems like everyone was looking at the problem from a player perspective.
How about....
1st room combat DM makes a notation in one of the typically blank columns in one of the blank classes such as
+ tells next DM add 50 HP to Monster and +2 AC / +2 to hit
++ tells the next DM add 100HP to monster and +5AC/+5 to hit
- tells the next DM subtract 25HP and-2AC/-2 to hit

Numbers could be adjusted but institutionalized so every DM understood exactly what it meant.

That way it would be individualized for each party.

Bob Chasan wrote: Full Disclosure! I only skimmed as too much to read BUT...,,,.,...
It seems like everyone was looking at the problem from a player perspective.
How about....
1st room combat DM makes a notation in one of the typically blank columns in one of the blank classes such as
+ tells next DM add 50 HP to Monster and +2 AC / +2 to hit
++ tells the next DM add 100HP to monster and +5AC/+5 to hit
- tells the next DM subtract 25HP and-2AC/-2 to hit

Numbers could be adjusted but institutionalized so every DM understood exactly what it meant.

That way it would be individualized for each party.

I don’t think one combat from a dm is going to convey how ‘well’ a team will do on the next combat at least the way my team slides.

Michelle wrote: I'm not new to this. I've read up on how the stats work and carefully craft my party to optimize stats based on the tokens we have and the role that character is playing in the party. Maybe my group is this weird outlier because I'm outfitting a whole party the best I can with a pool of tokens. We're not 10 individuals who each have been focusing on crafting one or two characters. Maybe we're so underpowered because we don't use a lot of consumables? I don't know, but it's frustrating to put so much time, effort, and money into something and feel like we're falling behind (due to the difficulty levels continually adjusting for power creep) instead on leveling up and moving forward.

I am having a hard time imagining how a full party of rare builds would not be encouraged to play at least Hardcore. Good sliders/puzzlers/resource managers in a full party of reds would, I think, be appropriate for Nightmare assuming a desire to be challenged.

2018 was unusual, though. There were challenges far harder than normal. Both N1 and N2 were far more dangerous combatwise than expected, and you can't know that until you play or until someone else says something.

Anyway, my thought is that your group should play Hardcore all of the time and then complain bitterly if it's far too difficult after the fact. Normal is supposed to handle a party with essentially no meaningful tokens. There is variance in difficulty, of course. I played N1 on normal with a group and two or three PCs could have died in the first room. Just have to suffer through, sometimes. My first run after building a meaningful collection I was running wizard with 72hp on Normal - I could ignore the dungeon if I wanted. That taught me that I either need to be playing a harder difficulty or need to rein in my builds at lower difficulties. It's an art, not a science, as another run taught me that my low damage output but high survivability build didn't help anyone else survive, which could be kind of annoying to others.

There was a stretch when I suggested any party where everyone had 30+hp should be playing Hardcore. That probably doesn't work anymore and likely never made sense for smaller parties, but I also was thinking everyone thought like I did that my focus is surviving to room 7, with a defeat by a monster being okay. Some people feel that the experience is optimal when you succeed at every room, which does mean that the numbers are different.

As to capping, I'm inclined to believe that it's not going to work that well. It's kludgy without being any guarantee of actually doing what it intends to do. But, then, I don't think TD can be this perfect experience for everyone. There are runs I like, runs I dislike, and ones that are okay. Somehow, 8000 tickets still get sold at GC and TD is now at 5 conventions.

A lot of what I think helps me enjoy more is figuring out what I can do, as a player. That comes with experience. I still have a lot to learn about modulating builds and play decisions to balance play to where I like it, which isn't easy if you run a dungeon once. Of course, I'm trying to avoid PUG runs at this point as it's harder to control for variables with such, but I realize not everyone can just decide to do this.