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TOPIC: History of Reprints and URTEs

History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #1

I recently undertook some reading of forums from yesteryear to try to understand the history of reprints, and what sorts of promises have been made - especially around the Horn of Plenty or other URs.

I hope you find this as interesting as I did researching it.

Some of the more amazing things I found were:
  • Lots of the same people have been involved in these discussions over the last decade
  • Almost everything that we're discussing now (loot cap, impact of extra loot, permissibly of lending TE tokens) has been discussed since the HoP was first printed
  • In 2007, it would have been very reasonable to assume the Horn of Plenty not only would have been reprinted, but would have been reprinted in 2008.
  • I did find Jeff actually saying HoP wouldn't be reprinted - but it wasn't until October 2010.
  • As late as August of 2010 Jeff mentioned the potential for a HoP reprint, and no one spoke up saying this was against policy.
  • However - as early as January 2008 players were speculating, and in some cases outright claiming, that HoP would never be reprinted.

Truly, there is nothing new under the sun.

==

Historical Context:

Going into In 2007, players would have expected URs to be reprinted.

The first set of URs in packs were in 2005. There were 20 2005 URs, of which:

One was the special Bucknard's Everfull Mug token, and 3 were GP tokens, leaving 16 URs with in game effect.

Of these 16 URs, 13 of the 2005 URs were reprinted in 2006.

So, heading into 2007 there would have been absolutely no reason for a player to assume any particular UR wouldn't be reprinted: after only 2 years most URs had already been reprinted.

2007 was the first "modern" UR set with 20 URs available from standard packs, with only 3 consumable/GP tokens (2006 had 5 consumable/GP URs and 2005 had 6).

The 2007 US class still features 5 reprints - and all five of these tokens: +1 Plate Armor, +2 Great Axe, +2 Long Sword, Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, Gloves of Dexterity had been available every year, and never been out of print.

So: the point here is people buying tokens in 2007 would have had absolutely no reason to expect any particular token would not be reprinted. In fact they would have had every reason to expect they would be reprinted.

You can see here henwy commenting in June/July of 2007 (emphasis mine):

henwy wrote: I think a lot of the calculus comes into what we think will be discontinued next year and how chagrined we would be if we didn't have one when it went. I actually chose 2 HoP's because I made the wager that it would go the way of the dodo after this year. I have no solid information to back that up but I figure it's an educated guess. More token pulls just means more whozits have to be funned into the treasure boxes. This becomes ecspecially problematic when you have to stock the boxes with things like ingredients and the like. We've already seen Jeff and Dave mention the problems with getting additional tokens printed up. So my gamble was that the HoP would go poof and shoot up in value.


truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=40427#40427

Here you can see Jeff discussion 2008 design talking about a big shakeup where as many as HALF (gasp!) of the tokens from 2008 would be different from 2007. "Heck, we might go with 15 new URs and only bring back 5 from 2007."

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=55452&limitstart=0

Early Desire for no HoP Reprint

As early as October 2007 , players were recognizing the power of the HoP, and when discussing / advocating it not be reprinted. This only makes sense given the historical context above - nowadays no one would think of advocating a current year UR not be reprinted the next year.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=51254&limitstart=0


Jeff responded to this survey, but not with any indication of what was in or out in 2008:

Jeff Martin wrote: The sales of tokens is a great source of funding for True Dungeon. I have never sat down and figured out how much the sales of tokens lowers the event cost, but it would be substantial. I hazard to guess what would happen to the ticket price if tokens went away. Hopefully, we can all work together to make the tokens fun and interesting for years to come. There will be much discussion in the Fall about tokens for 2008 -- and it will be everyone's great comments that will make the 2008 tokens a success.

Thank you to everyone who has offered suggestions and comments over the years. Many of you have chimed in here. You all have made something pretty dang cool.


January 2008

By January of 2008 a player is speculating "it's a pretty safe bet" that HoP will not come back into print.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=61853#61855


November 2008

Jeff says directly "We won't be reprinting it [the HOP] any time soon." in response to a question of whether HoP will be reprinted in the 2010 token set.:

There is discussion about version of Questor's Charm of luck which would be slotless and give you treasure when you slide a 20 that Jeff had proposed.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=83101&start=36#83137


July 2009

A player claims Jeff said we'll never make another HoP - this is the oldest such claim I can find in the forums.

However piecing things together, I think some of the discussion was deleted from the forums (not unusual for token design discussion).

Personally I think it's likely this was a misinterpretation - but it's the oldest claim I can find about a no HoP reprint policy.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=96212&start=24


August 2010

Jeff mentions how he could sell a lot of tokens by reprinting a HoP or AoW, but that it never really entered his mind to do so.

No one objected to this statement or affirmed an agreement about reprints.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=53&id=119420&start=24


October 2010

Discussion around 2010 reprints, people ask for HoP, no mention of a policy:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=100214&start=72#100288

October 2010

Jeff mentions he won't reprint the HoP:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=125324#125364

Final Thoughts

No one who bought a HoP while it was in print should have had reason to expect it wouldn't be reprinted.

Players seemed to begin an echo chamber discussion that the HoP "would probably never be reprinted" long before any such policy existed.

Certainly there was no promise implied or otherwise that other URTEs wouldn't be printed - these were being discussed as early as 2008 token design.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #2

Research note:

There appears to have been at least one cataclysm in the forums that make it hard to search for stuff.

If you want to find Jeff's posts from before 2010, search for "admin" not "Jeff Martin" as the author.

The formatting on the old posts is very wonky making them pretty hard to read.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #3

Matthew Hayward wrote:

  • As late as August of 2010 Jeff mentioned the potential for a HoP reprint, and no one spoke up saying this was against policy.

  • Oh, I am certain that people spoke out.

    One thing to remember is that a lot of the older forum stuff didn't transfer well.

    In addition, there are some threads which get deleted. This is VERY common in some token development threads.

    Plus, LOTS of players send feedback to Jeff via private e-mail rather than posting on the forums. In the past, during token development discussions, Jeff has mentioned that some people provide feedback via e-mail, so he will sometimes make changes that won't seem obvious to forumites because he is responding to e-mail feedback.

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    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #4

    Incognito wrote:

    Matthew Hayward wrote:

  • As late as August of 2010 Jeff mentioned the potential for a HoP reprint, and no one spoke up saying this was against policy.

  • Oh, I am certain that people spoke out.

    One thing to remember is that a lot of the older forum stuff didn't transfer well.

    In addition, there are some threads which get deleted. This is VERY common in some token development threads.

    Plus, LOTS of players send feedback to Jeff via private e-mail rather than posting on the forums. In the past, during token development discussions, Jeff has mentioned that some people provide feedback via e-mail, so he will sometimes make changes that won't seem obvious to forumites because he is responding to e-mail feedback.



    Here is the thread, it's complete, you can judge for yourself if anyone spoke out:

    truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=53&id=119420&start=24

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    Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #5

    Three things which you don't mention:

    1. There was DEFINITELY a lot of pushback when many HoP's became available in 2009. After the Golden Tickets ran out, Jeff found a stash of HoP's and so every other random UR was going to be a HoP (so 1 out of 200 packs would have a HoP). This was supposed to last until they ran out of HoP's.

    2. In 2010, they allowed you to PYP for any UR from 2007-2010 (except for HoP's and AoW's which had run out). This was nominally done because of set reasons. But there was a SIGNIFICANT number of players who were not happy with this because what is the point of collecting UR's if you can always just choose them in future years.

    This policy eventually evolved into the current PYP limitations of this year's UR's or last year's UR's (but not further back).

    3. The 2012 Mithral Coin of Fate also essentially "reprinted" just about any of those older tokens.

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    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #6

    Matthew Hayward wrote: July 2009

    A player claims Jeff said we'll never make another HoP - this is the oldest such claim I can find in the forums.

    However piecing things together, I think some of the discussion was deleted from the forums (not unusual for token design discussion).

    Personally I think it's likely this was a misinterpretation - but it's the oldest claim I can find about a no HoP reprint policy.

    truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=96212&start=24


    A few years ago (3 years ago), I actually typed up some historic footnotes regarding HoP issues:

    History of "Reprints" (especially regarding HoP)
    truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=206693#206693

    Incognito wrote: #2. In 2009, HoP's were made available in limited quantities:

    SPECIAL PROMOTION: The Golden Ticket contest is over, but we have come up with another promotion to say thanks for ordering tokens now - when we need the funding. All gamers placing a token order in July will have a chance to draw a 2007 "Horn of Plenty" token as their random "1 in 100 pack" Ultra Rare. During the month of July, 50% off all random Ultra Rare tokens will be a "Horn of Plenty" token, so that means 1 out of every 200 10-packs will contain a "Horn of Plenty" token. The promotion will last until all the "HoP" tokens are gone, but this text will be immediately updated when that occurs. And don't forget, you still get to pick one 2009 Ultra Rare token for every $250 in tokens you buy.

    * IIRC, this was the initial "reprint equivalent" that got people upset, and it was around this time that Jeff agreed to put the HoP on the no reprint, reserve list.



    You might want to ask Henwy what he remembers.

    I do recall that Dis Bee Leaf was very unhappy with the HoP situation.

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    Last edit: by Incognito.

    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #7

    Incognito wrote:

    Matthew Hayward wrote: July 2009

    A player claims Jeff said we'll never make another HoP - this is the oldest such claim I can find in the forums.

    However piecing things together, I think some of the discussion was deleted from the forums (not unusual for token design discussion).

    Personally I think it's likely this was a misinterpretation - but it's the oldest claim I can find about a no HoP reprint policy.

    truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=96212&start=24


    No, I'm pretty sure it was NOT a misinterpretation.



    I can imagine people being unhappy about it - but I'm more interested in whether there was a stated policy of there being no reprints of HoP.

    It doesn't appear there was.

    I'd be interested in evidence to the contrary.

    All prior claims I can find in the forums say things like "it probably won't be reprinted" - and occur in contexts that make it clear people are considering the possibility, however slight, that it might be reprinted in the next token year.

    After this post was made, in September/October 2009 when someone asked if HoP should be reprinted in 2010 you yourself on the thread said:

    Incognito wrote:

    How about reprinting the Horn of Plenty? There is a serious supply/demand imbalance when they frequently sell for $450 each on ebay.


    Uh, bad timing on the topic. Especially since Jeff and Lori briefly made the Horn of Plenty available right before GenCon (randomly replaced some Ultra-Rares). So they already kinda reintroduced the Horn of Plenty. To avoid setting bad precedent, I imagine they'd wait a while before doing so again (if ever).

    Plus, as others have noted before, Horns of Plenty do result in increasing costs for True Dungeon. So you're trading some short-term gains for longer-term expenses. (You might also anger some Horn of Plenty holders, who tend to be large token buyers, so this can result in additional unpleasantness).

    If it was a PYP, then the value would be much less than $250 per Horn, which I don't think would be worth it. If TD was really hard-up on the cash, they could randomly insert Horns (NOT PYP). Or maybe sell individual Horns for $450+. Or maybe if you place a $1000 order, one of your PYP's could be a Horn. Something like that. But I think TD would have to seriously be in dire straits (or would generate major income) for them to risk reprinting the Horn.

    Not to say the idea is impossible. But there are plenty of challenges it would have to surmount

    Truth be told, many of us were quite surprised when they made a comeback just a few months ago. So who knows? Anything could happen....



    Already reintroduced? Will probably wait before doing it again? Speculation about what it would mean if it were a PyP? A final conclusion that anything is possible?

    I find it impossible to square your comment with a world where there was a clear and communicated "we will not reprint the HoP" policy in place. I think you, who clearly cared about this issue having posted as early as prior to 2008 token design that HoP should not be reprinted, would have been familiar with a policy and would have mentioned it when responding to someone who asked if it should be reprinted.

    So I stand by my assessment that the post from July 2009 claiming that Jeff had said it would never be reprinted was probably a misinterpretation.

    I'd be interested in any documentation you can find suggesting a reprint policy prior to July 2009.

    truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=100214&start=72#100288

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    Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #8

    Matthew Hayward wrote:

    Incognito wrote:

    Matthew Hayward wrote: July 2009

    A player claims Jeff said we'll never make another HoP - this is the oldest such claim I can find in the forums.

    However piecing things together, I think some of the discussion was deleted from the forums (not unusual for token design discussion).

    Personally I think it's likely this was a misinterpretation - but it's the oldest claim I can find about a no HoP reprint policy.

    truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=96212&start=24


    No, I'm pretty sure it was NOT a misinterpretation.



    I can imagine people being unhappy about it - but I'm more interested in whether there was a stated policy of there being no reprints of HoP.

    It doesn't appear there was.

    I'd be interested in evidence to the contrary.

    All prior claims I can find in the forums say things like "it probably won't be reprinted" - and occur in contexts that make it clear people are considering the possibility, however slight, that it might be reprinted in the next token year.

    After this post was made, in September/October 2009 when someone asked if HoP should be reprinted in 2010 you yourself on the thread said:

    Incognito wrote:

    How about reprinting the Horn of Plenty? There is a serious supply/demand imbalance when they frequently sell for $450 each on ebay.


    Uh, bad timing on the topic. Especially since Jeff and Lori briefly made the Horn of Plenty available right before GenCon (randomly replaced some Ultra-Rares). So they already kinda reintroduced the Horn of Plenty. To avoid setting bad precedent, I imagine they'd wait a while before doing so again (if ever).

    Plus, as others have noted before, Horns of Plenty do result in increasing costs for True Dungeon. So you're trading some short-term gains for longer-term expenses. (You might also anger some Horn of Plenty holders, who tend to be large token buyers, so this can result in additional unpleasantness).

    If it was a PYP, then the value would be much less than $250 per Horn, which I don't think would be worth it. If TD was really hard-up on the cash, they could randomly insert Horns (NOT PYP). Or maybe sell individual Horns for $450+. Or maybe if you place a $1000 order, one of your PYP's could be a Horn. Something like that. But I think TD would have to seriously be in dire straits (or would generate major income) for them to risk reprinting the Horn.

    Not to say the idea is impossible. But there are plenty of challenges it would have to surmount

    Truth be told, many of us were quite surprised when they made a comeback just a few months ago. So who knows? Anything could happen....



    Already reintroduced? Will probably wait before doing it again? Speculation about what it would mean if it were a PyP? A final conclusion that anything is possible?

    I find it impossible to square your comment with a world where there was a clear and communicated "we will not reprint the HoP" policy in place. I think you, who clearly cared about this issue having posted as early as prior to 2008 token design that HoP should not be reprinted, would have been familiar with a policy and would have mentioned it when responding to someone who asked if it should be reprinted.

    So I stand by my assessment that the post from July 2009 claiming that Jeff had said it would never be reprinted was probably a misinterpretation.

    I'd be interested in any documentation you can find suggesting a reprint policy prior to July 2009.

    truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=100214&start=72#100288



    Oh, I see. You are focused on the actual exact date.

    In that case, I agree with you.

    The HoP no-reprint policy came about as a result of one or two key events:

    1. The July 6th, 2009 decision to make a certain number of HoP's available again.

    And possibly 2. The "Any 2007-2009 UR for PYP" policy in 2010.

    So I do agree that it is very unlikely there would be anything prior to July 2009.

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    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #9

    Matthew Hayward wrote:

    Incognito wrote:

    Matthew Hayward wrote:

  • As late as August of 2010 Jeff mentioned the potential for a HoP reprint, and no one spoke up saying this was against policy.

  • Oh, I am certain that people spoke out.

    One thing to remember is that a lot of the older forum stuff didn't transfer well.

    In addition, there are some threads which get deleted. This is VERY common in some token development threads.

    Plus, LOTS of players send feedback to Jeff via private e-mail rather than posting on the forums. In the past, during token development discussions, Jeff has mentioned that some people provide feedback via e-mail, so he will sometimes make changes that won't seem obvious to forumites because he is responding to e-mail feedback.


    Here is the thread, it's complete, you can judge for yourself if anyone spoke out:

    truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=53&id=119420&start=24



    Okay, I took a more thorough look at the thread.

    I think you are lacking context.

    This was a very heated discussion topic and it became a very heated thread. A lot of forumites had already had their say on the topic (earlier in the thread). Near the end of the thread, Jeff then posted in what seemed like a defensive/emotional response due to perceived accusations.

    Regardless of the situation, no one is going to be challenging Jeff at this point.

    This is not to say when the policy was established.

    But given the situation, even if the reprint policy was hypothetically in place by this time, no one is going to be poking the Jeffagorgon. So in this specific case, I don't think the lack of a response to Jeff should be used as evidence one way or another.

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    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #10

    Also, as was mentioned, it was common policy then for all token development threads to be deleted after token development was completed. That would have been a logical place for such a statement.

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    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #11

    Matthew Hayward wrote: The first set of URs in packs were in 2005. There were 20 2005 URs, of which:

    One was the special Bucknard's Everfull Mug token, and 3 were GP tokens, leaving 16 URs with in game effect.

    Of these 16 URs, 13 of the 2005 URs were reprinted in 2006.


    Hi Matthew,

    A couple of minor corrections regarding the 2005 URs. They weren't available in packs, they could only be found in the Dungeon. In particular, there was one puzzle room that had an Ultra-Rare available in it. That did cause problems, as veteran players would join groups going through it on their first time, and immediately run over to that puzzle and obtain the Ultra-Rare. This obviously caused hard feelings with the new players that saw the Veteran player grab and keep the only Ultra-Rare token in the room.

    Only 19 of the URs were obtainable in the Dungeon, because the Bucknard's Everfull Mug token was a Volunteer Token in the mug. I think it was the rarest Volunteer Token made - it is definitely the hardest to find for sale.

    Another minor note is that there were two token printings in 2005 (2005A and 2005B). Only 2005B had Ultra Rare tokens. I believe they were a last-minute addition, they used the TrueDungeon.Com back (from the Day/Time tokens given out in 2003) instead of the Blowing Wind back from 2005B.

    Thanks!
    Mike

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    History of Reprints and URTEs 6 years 10 months ago #12

    Mike Steele wrote: Also, as was mentioned, it was common policy then for all token development threads to be deleted after token development was completed. That would have been a logical place for such a statement.


    If you are going to make a policy detailing a permanent promise regarding reprint a token, it could certainly be mentioned during development.


    But that would not be a logical place to keep such a statement on a thread that will then be deleted more or less immediately.


    Because then we'd all have to rely on human memory :lol:

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    Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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