TOPIC: Elemental Eldritch Set with Lenses of Divine Sight

Brad Mortensen wrote: I was also reading it the way George did, thinking a duplicated spell was two single-target spells, not one multi-target spell. But I'll remember for Gencon.

Not to be a pain, but how does this affect Carter's, if I use it to recast a heal spell? Is it still just a 10-point pool, or 20? (We've ruled out 40).

It gives 0. Carter's is "cast as scroll" and no items boost it, bonus healing, set bonus or anything. It's purely lowest printed damage on the spell

Druegar wrote: per Jeff:
Cure Minor Wounds + Lenses of Divine Sight + Ring of Greater Focus + Eldritch healing bonus = two targets each heal 4 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Each Elemental Eldritch set item in the TDb has been updated to reflect this. Future versions of the various guides shall reflect this as well.

Jeff asked me to add that the intent of the Eldritch bonus was to not to break the game by giving overpowering healing abilities to low-level spells. Jeff feels it is necessary to adjust, clarify, or even change rules if needed to ensure the overall health of the game. I concur with that sentiment and suspect most players do too.

Great question George! Please enjoy a glass of milk.
[img size=200,200] www.dantasyland.com/td/FrostyGlassofMilk.png [/img]

As a personal opinion I think it would be much better to see the 2 piece bonus toned down to legendary bonus level (5 healing not 10) and leave the duplication effect set as written.

I know this hurts the 2 piece bonus but a bonus 10 healing is frankly extreme, and I say this as a MEC wizard who uses the charm on every spellcast.

I do agree with everyone here saying that a ruling change at this point is a bad decision. It sets precedent that any token combination currently in place can change without notice or discussion and means that any token that is not 100% effective by itself is at risk to have it's effectiveness radically changed at any point.

While I agree that the ROSP 2 piece bonus mirrored is overpowered (and the reason I don't normally end up using my own ROSP on runs but loaning it to the cleric to cover my MEC use) I would say, at this point, the established functionality should be reinstated.

Adeya wrote: I'm in agreement with Mike here. I'm not happy with this change. It devalues both tokens in the Eldtrich set. The extra ten points was a great way to balance out the healing in the party when there are one or two wizards constantly cutting themselves. If there is still too much healing going around then the Nightmare monsters need to do more damage. This can be accomplished through multi-attacks, harder hits, and/or damage auras (all simple changes to make for the experienced DMs in Grind). Errata to token powers ought to only be done if there is a serious problem with how something works, and I didn't think that was the case here.

Exactly. This isn't a case where there is some unforeseen token interaction. The interaction between the lenses and the Eldritch set was completely understood and discussed in depth when Jeff made his ruling on how it worked. It is unnecessary and inappropriate to change it now. Jeff, I hope you will negate this significant change and leave the rules as is.

Mike Steele wrote:

Adeya wrote: I'm in agreement with Mike here. I'm not happy with this change. It devalues both tokens in the Eldtrich set. The extra ten points was a great way to balance out the healing in the party when there are one or two wizards constantly cutting themselves. If there is still too much healing going around then the Nightmare monsters need to do more damage. This can be accomplished through multi-attacks, harder hits, and/or damage auras (all simple changes to make for the experienced DMs in Grind). Errata to token powers ought to only be done if there is a serious problem with how something works, and I didn't think that was the case here.

Exactly. This isn't a case where there is some unforeseen token interaction. The interaction between the lenses and the Eldritch set was completely understood and discussed in depth when Jeff made his ruling on how it worked. It is unnecessary and inappropriate to change it now. Jeff, I hope you will negate this significant change and leave the rules as is.

I disagree with the unnecessary part but I do agree that changing it at this point is 100% inappropriate.

I would rather see the bonus from the set scaled back versus having the combats adjusted up to accommodate for it. There is a high disparity of token access at higher levels, allowing the gap to push farther makes it harder to those without these levels of tokens to compete and that's not good for the long term survival of the game.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Adeya wrote: I'm in agreement with Mike here. I'm not happy with this change. It devalues both tokens in the Eldtrich set. The extra ten points was a great way to balance out the healing in the party when there are one or two wizards constantly cutting themselves. If there is still too much healing going around then the Nightmare monsters need to do more damage. This can be accomplished through multi-attacks, harder hits, and/or damage auras (all simple changes to make for the experienced DMs in Grind). Errata to token powers ought to only be done if there is a serious problem with how something works, and I didn't think that was the case here.

Exactly. This isn't a case where there is some unforeseen token interaction. The interaction between the lenses and the Eldritch set was completely understood and discussed in depth when Jeff made his ruling on how it worked. It is unnecessary and inappropriate to change it now. Jeff, I hope you will negate this significant change and leave the rules as is.

I disagree with the unnecessary part but I do agree that changing it at this point is 100% inappropriate.

I would rather see the bonus from the set scaled back versus having the combats adjusted up to accommodate for it. There is a high disparity of token access at higher levels, allowing the gap to push farther makes it harder to those without these levels of tokens to compete and that's not good for the long term survival of the game.

Scaling the Eldritch Set bonus back at this point is just as bad. It has been established for quite awhile now, and people spent quite a bit of money to procure them based on the current powers. I clearly remember the discussion specifically in regards to the one point healing spells and the 10 point Eldritch bonus, with some people pushing to exempt the minor healing spell from the Eldritch Set bonus, and Jeff chose to leave the bonus as it was (10 points affecting all spells including the one point healing spell.

Both the Eldritch Set Bonus and the interaction with the Lenses of Divine Sight been discussed and ruled on in the past, with all the pros and cons discussed in depth, and those rulings should remain in place.

I'm pretty disappointed, with all the rampant power growth that has been happening, especially in regards to combat bonuses for both melee/ranged and spells, that this is the item that suddenly seems to be "game breaking". I think any problems that this healing might cause pale next to the balance problems caused by the super-high combat bonuses that are available. And personally, given the massive increases in character max hit points, combat bonuses, and monster stats, this amount of healing is pretty in-scale with those increases. Characters can heal 10 points with healing potions now, this isn't that much more than that.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I do agree with everyone here saying that a ruling change at this point is a bad decision. It sets precedent that any token combination currently in place can change without notice or discussion and means that any token that is not 100% effective by itself is at risk to have it's effectiveness radically changed at any point.

This has always been the case. Celestial Set comes to mind as another example of this.

Druegar wrote: per Jeff:
Cure Minor Wounds + Lenses of Divine Sight + Ring of Greater Focus + Eldritch healing bonus = two targets each heal 4 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Each Elemental Eldritch set item in the TDb has been updated to reflect this. Future versions of the various guides shall reflect this as well.

Jeff asked me to add that the intent of the Eldritch bonus was to not to break the game by giving overpowering healing abilities to low-level spells. Jeff feels it is necessary to adjust, clarify, or even change rules if needed to ensure the overall health of the game. I concur with that sentiment and suspect most players do too.

Great question George! Please enjoy a glass of milk.
[img size=200,200] www.dantasyland.com/td/FrostyGlassofMilk.png [/img]

Druegar, I'm clearly against changing this at all, but I did notice that the guidance from Jeff seems to be focused on the impact on the 1 point healing spell, but the change you implemented was a global change affecting all healing spells. Was that an error?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I was also reading it the way George did, thinking a duplicated spell was two single-target spells, not one multi-target spell. But I'll remember for Gencon.

Not to be a pain, but how does this affect Carter's, if I use it to recast a heal spell? Is it still just a 10-point pool, or 20? (We've ruled out 40).

It gives 0. Carter's is "cast as scroll" and no items boost it, bonus healing, set bonus or anything. It's purely lowest printed damage on the spell

Uhm... yeah. I shouldn't post that late after a long drive.

I am also against this change, as there were discussions on the +10 effecting 1 pt heals when the ROSP bonus was first announced. Then when the Lenses were introduced there was discussion around the interaction between them and the ROSP bonus. No alarm was sounded then, but now we get it after 2 Cons?

So it looks like all the Focus rings are now just pooled healing.

Will the Pearl of Prayer also get a note that it's just +3 to your healing pool bonus?

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I was also reading it the way George did, thinking a duplicated spell was two single-target spells, not one multi-target spell. But I'll remember for Gencon.

Not to be a pain, but how does this affect Carter's, if I use it to recast a heal spell? Is it still just a 10-point pool, or 20? (We've ruled out 40).

It gives 0. Carter's is "cast as scroll" and no items boost it, bonus healing, set bonus or anything. It's purely lowest printed damage on the spell

Uhm... yeah. I shouldn't post that late after a long drive.

Happens to us all

Ugh. I a very against this change. It has been this way for a while now. It was talked through completely. Tokens were bought based on the way we have been playing.

valetutto wrote: Ugh. I a very against this change. It has been this way for a while now. It was talked through completely. Tokens were bought based on the way we have been playing.

I agree.

I think at this point the best we can do is step back and wait for Jeff to speak.

For those of you unaware there was a major issue at Who's Yer Con involving the truck being used to transport items. There was at least an extra day of delay added to everything.

Let's step back and be patient. Give Jeff time enough to get back home, validate everything is OK and mull over the situation. I'm sure we will hear from him on this issue once everything is taken care of with the physical aspect of cleanup and storage. Give it a bit of time