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TOPIC: Forming Guild of Token Traders

Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #61

i am sure I cut some people off..I would over hear people asking for YYY and I would just walk up and hand it to them..no trade (i know I did not do it to you)

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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #62

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Druegar wrote: Selling tokens for cash is merely against Gen Con's rules.

Gambling/games of chance are an actual crime.


In Indiana, it depends on what you are doing. Technically, every time we roll a die at GenCon, it is a game of chance. I hope no one arrests us because we won initiative on the monster! hahaha! :laugh: "Well, your honor, the monster might have killed one or more of us in the first round if we didn't roll the die to win initiative,..." :laugh:

Gambling for money is illegal in Indiana, without the establishment being licensed to do so (the various casinos).

There was a game in 2007 at Gen Con I think that had you being a spy, and had you getting to role play being like James Bond at games of chance. You needed to get to a certain amount of "value" of chips to be able to "purchase" what you needed to continue in your mission. There was no actual value to that, although you could play blackjack, or other games of chance.

Also, my workplace once had a "casino night", that rather than doing just a raffle, you got a given amount of chips, got to play the games of chance (or not), and there was an auction at the end for donated "raffle" items. This was also not against Indiana law.
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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #63

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persolo wrote:

JP wrote: Count me in as well.
Do we get cool buttons? Secret handshake?

JP


A token signifying us as the Guild, and therefore discounts on Token Packs? ;-)


:) That would be nice. Not to be a wet blanket, but I think that since this is not something that can be sponsored by True Dungeon, having discounts on token packs could be seen as officially supporting this endeavor, and therefore, something Jeff would want to avoid.

On the other hand, there's nothing to stop Guildmembers from coming up with and purchasing pins, T-shirts, or sashes, similar to what some other groups have done. :)
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Last edit: by quip.

Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #64

quip wrote:

persolo wrote:

JP wrote: Count me in as well.
Do we get cool buttons? Secret handshake?

JP


A token signifying us as the Guild, and therefore discounts on Token Packs? ;-)


:) That would be nice. Not to be a wet blanket, but I think that since this is not something that can be sponsored by True Dungeon, having discounts on token packs could be seen as officially supporting this endeavor, and therefore, something Jeff would want to avoid.

On the other hand, there's nothing to stop Guildmembers from coming up with and purchasing pins or T-shirts, similar to what some other groups have done. :)


*nods* Mine was in jest. I know there is no way they could officially endorse this, which is why we have to keep ourselves in check when it comes to trading, lest we make TD look bad.

The pins and shirts, otoh, is a cool idea.

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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #65

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Rafiq wrote: Looking at the rules I agree with numbers 2 and 3. I understand number 1 in theory but not sure how it will work in practice. Many token buyers (myself included) will slowly adjust a price as I start to run low on a particular token. So I might sell a ring of protection +1 for a 100 gold, but it doesn't mean I will sell my last one for that much. Supply and demand. I think instead of absolutes there should be a range. For example: Ring of protection +1 80-200 gp.

Rafiq


IMHO, and I know this is a simple solution, but, if you get a random pack, and you randomly have gp value items that you may get, something similar is a guideline. For example, the Kraken tear, giant pearl, and gold mug (I don't have this in front of me right now, so please forgive the paraphrasing), are rare gp items between 150-250gp. Therefore a reasonable price for a rare would be in that range. If someone wants to adjust their price (whether it is to discount or increase because of demand), that's up to them.
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Last edit: by quip.

Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #66

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Rafiq wrote: I also think there should be a rule preventing others from interfering with trades. For example, I sent a few players George's way because I either didn't have what a player was looking for or they were trying to sell something I wasn't interested in or couldn't afford. I do not like other traders jumping in on a trade while I am in discussions. It happened once and I let it go because I didn't have what they were looking for. If I did have what they were looking for I'm not sure how I would have reacted.

Rafiq


I agree that it would be courteous for us to not interfere with each other's trades. I don't like the the idea of having this as a "rule". What George is proposing is designed to be of benefit to players, and help support the idea of having at least one trader available at any time, so as to create a consistent source of supplies for players, which, IMHO, is the strongest idea of creating the guild. I wouldn't want to see the scenario happen of "you stole my customer! I'm going to have you banned from the trader's guild!".

I would propose to all in the guild the following for approval:
A courteous trading area benefits the players, the traders, and encourages interest in True Dungeon. The Guild of Token Traders therefore supports traders being courteous to one another. As such, we encourage traders to not interfere with others' trades. If a "customer" leaves our token trading spot, they are then open to approach by other traders.

I believe if we have more room for tables for trading next year (for example, if we find our schedule to have 6 traders maximum at a time, if there can be 7 trading tables in front of the coaching areas, assuming there aren't additional tables in the tavern for traders), we would be able to avoid sitting right next to someone conducting a trade, and therefore there would be less impetus to chime in.

Having a tavern area next year will also help with having a separate area for people "hanging out".
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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #67

Lazlo: I wish it was you. Then I could have completed our trade earlier in the con. Lol. (BTW, I'm still interested in those CLW scrolls. I can send you GP in the mail. Do you have anything else for sale?)

Druegar: I asked about the games of chance because I remember there used to be dice rolling in the vendor hall. You paid a dollar, rolled some dice, and could potentially win a very valuable card (usually Magic the Gathering vendors). I didn't see it this year so was wondering if something like that had been banned, found to be a crime, or something in-between.

Quip: I'm not sure rolling dice in an RPG or board game is considered gambling. When I asked about games of chance I meant gambling. I know it is a fine line so I was hoping Jeff or someone with the authority to make a ruling would chime in.

If traders are allowed to jump in on trades while other traders are in negotiations then count me out of the guild.

Rafiq

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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #68

I'm neither a lawyer nor an officer of the law. All I can tell you is that for years, every time the topic of "gambling" has come up, TPTB have put the kibosh on it because of Indiana state laws.

It is my totally uneducated, non-binding, ignoramus understanding that there's a difference between "games of chance" that always have at least some kind of payoff and the more stereotypical "gambling" where you can lose.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections in this thread .
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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #69

Druegar wrote: I'm neither a lawyer nor an officer of the law. All I can tell you is that for years, every time the topic of "gambling" has come up, TPTB have put the kibosh on it because of Indiana state laws.

It is my totally uneducated, non-binding, ignoramus understanding that there's a difference between "games of chance" that always have at least some kind of payoff and the more stereotypical "gambling" where you can lose.


Someone would want to look into that. Our local convention in Indy (InConJunction) had to examine all sorts of information on having a TV Raffle, for one of the TVs used in our video room. I'm not sure we ever found out, but I remember there was a lot of back and forth over the legality of it. This was many years ago, and we only did it a year or two.

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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #70

"Gain " means the direct realization of winnings.

"Gambling " means risking money or other property for gain, contingent in whole or in part upon lot, chance, or the operation of a gambling device; but it does not include participating in:

(1) bona fide contests of skill, speed, strength, or endurance in which awards are made only to entrants or the owners of entries; or

(2) bona fide business transactions that are valid under the law of contracts.

The legal question for rolling dice to win tokens is whether tokens qualify as a "Gain". Since the token itself does not have an inherent value, the question is whether the secondary market imputes value to the token. If so, the token would be considered a gain, and any game of chance (i.e. rolling dice) would be considered gambling. However, beer chugging and arm wrestling would not be considered gambling. Overall, I would lean to saying that it would be considered gambling, but I'd love to find out otherwise.
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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #71

Doean't the token have an inherent value based on the cost of a bag?
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Re: Forming Guild of Token Traders 12 years 7 months ago #72

Kithren Bloodwood wrote: Doean't the token have an inherent value based on the cost of a bag?


You can find many tokens for sale on e-bay which gives them an easy to determine value. I would hate to stand before a judge and argue that tokens had no value.
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