TOPIC: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens...

artifacts should be significantly more powerful than ur's. come on, they are artifacts. the whole question of how many a player can use at one time is silly and so is the idea of limiting the number a person can have. i have heard the arguments about how they unbalance the game. TD is group versus the environment, not group versus group.

while i was under the impression the artifacts would run for 5 years, 3 years is good too. they have sucked more gold out of the TD economy that all other items combined (guessing). having their power become limited to affecting only 1 person is cool also.

i really like the idea of the predetermined ones with set dates for release. this will allow folks to plan ahead or pass on ones they aren't interested in.

smakdown wrote: artifacts should be significantly more powerful than ur's. come on, they are artifacts. the whole question of how many a player can use at one time is silly and so is the idea of limiting the number a person can have. i have heard the arguments about how they unbalance the game. TD is group versus the environment, not group versus group.

while i was under the impression the artifacts would run for 5 years, 3 years is good too. they have sucked more gold out of the TD economy that all other items combined (guessing). having their power become limited to affecting only 1 person is cool also.

i really like the idea of the predetermined ones with set dates for release. this will allow folks to plan ahead or pass on ones they aren't interested in.

I could have said it better. I agree

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I would recommend that after these 9 Artifact Tokens are finished, you stop auctioning artifact tokens completely and go back to auctioning off tokens and items that don't have in-game value.

I think that the same fairly small group of people will continue to win these auctions, and that fairly soon you'll have groups with 5-6 or even more of these game-altering artifacts. It will be impossible for you to design a Dungeon that is challenging for the groups with multiple artifacts and still reasonably survivable by groups without the artifacts. My main concern is that you will design the top level Dungeons so that they are challenging to the groups with multiple artifacts, and make it too difficult for the rest of the groups without Artifacts.

It seems that the auctions did just fine for years without having these super-powerful artifacts, and would do just fine again without them. I'd recommend something like a new set of Artisan Tokens rather than new Artifact Tokens.

Thanks,
Mike

If most or all of the artifacts only effect one person, and each player is limited to one artifact per run, it wouldn't be that bad. And the same power vs design argument could be made for URs. The difference between an all (or mostly) purple Fighter and an all red fighter Fighter is huge. And the average player probably won't even be able to equip their character with all reds.

Also, if new players don't even have the option to get items at the same power level as veteran players, it will not encourage them to stay with the game. There is already a huge gap in player levels, and with the current XP system it will be years (decades?) before players start to reach high enough levels that the difference doesn't matter. Can't Catch Up is a tremendous disincentive, and having it apply in a more game pertinent way could be crippling. So much as I hate comparing TD to a CCG, it does seem to apply in this case.

TD needs to either keep dribbling out artifacts, and hopefully find a way/incentive to let people who don't have one get a shot. Or else ban existing artifacts in all but special events. Not that I condone banning, I think it is horribly unfair to those players and uncool in general.

I agree that a limit on the number of artifacts per person would help limit things, but there isn't any limit on the number of artifacts a person can have, is there?

I don't think you can compare the impact of Ultra-Rares on game balance to that of Artifacts. Ultra-Rares aren't that big of an upgrade on Rares - armor has about a +1 AC bonus, and weapons have about a +1Dam/+1Hit bonus on average. The Artifacts are so high-powered it is almost like giving the people super-powers, they are light-years better than any comparable Ultra-Rare or Rare.

But I was not comparing a single UR's power jump to the an artifact, I was comparing a full compliment of URs. Yes, each UR might only be +1 or +2 over a rare, but a full compliment of URs could be worth +4 to hit, to damage, to AC, to all saves, and provide some other secondary bonuses (free action, level jump, reroll saves, init bonus, etc).

I am curious, why are you only auctioning them off this year? I admit, there's no way I can ever get enough GP to be anywhere in the running for the auction, but the thought that through a lucky treasure draw I could get one of these was always kind of appealing (of course, then getting the wish ring in order to use the recipe would be problematic, but anyways...). Is there a particular reason that this isn't being done again? Just keeping the numbers down? Just curious...

ok, my thoughts on this:

anyone acquiring an artifact recipe KNOWS that what they want to make must be approved by jeff. if jeff has decided that these last two are single person only, consider him a nice guy for warning you ahead of time.

maybe the best approach is to consider these 9 artifacts to be their own tier (whether that means allow the last two to have group-power is up to jeff). the important distinction is that future pre-designed artifacts can have other limitations placed on them (without pulling the rug out from under people after they have invested in them). i think it would be fair/good to only allow one of them per player.

also, i question the plan to have the pre-made artifacts be soul-bound. it makes sense for the special custom-designed artifacts, but is there a reason that these other unique items should not be tradeable? especially if you want any to be drawable as treasure. and if you want to keep a 'TD registry of current artifact owners' to prevent borrowing during gencon (which i suggest you do, only one person can use it per con), it could even become a mini-game...put a few special 'see TD desk' tokens in the treasure chest, and whoever draws that trades it in for one of x random tokens (one is the artifact, the others are probably URs). that allows you to keep track of the original owner.

as a soulbound artifact owner, i will say they really rock.

as a big token buyer, i really don't care for the idea of limiting how many artifacts that i may aquire. if i can get my hands on another, why shouldn't i be able to use them both. or if someone can get 3, 4, or more, why tell them they can't fully utilize them? it just doesn't make sense.

smakdown wrote: as a soulbound artifact owner, i will say they really rock.

as a big token buyer, i really don't care for the idea of limiting how many artifacts that i may aquire. if i can get my hands on another, why shouldn't i be able to use them both. or if someone can get 3, 4, or more, why tell them they can't fully utilize them? it just doesn't make sense.

For the same reason you can't use ten or twenty rings, or enough necklaces/amulets to look like Mr. T (character wise, anyway). Because the rules say so, with the justification that certain types of powerful magical field can interfere with one another.

smakdown wrote: as a soulbound artifact owner, i will say they really rock.

as a big token buyer, i really don't care for the idea of limiting how many artifacts that i may aquire. if i can get my hands on another, why shouldn't i be able to use them both. or if someone can get 3, 4, or more, why tell them they can't fully utilize them? it just doesn't make sense.

you can always buy it for me. i will run with you so you can still use it

Xavon wrote:

smakdown wrote: as a soulbound artifact owner, i will say they really rock.

as a big token buyer, i really don't care for the idea of limiting how many artifacts that i may aquire. if i can get my hands on another, why shouldn't i be able to use them both. or if someone can get 3, 4, or more, why tell them they can't fully utilize them? it just doesn't make sense.

For the same reason you can't use ten or twenty rings, or enough necklaces/amulets to look like Mr. T (character wise, anyway). Because the rules say so, with the justification that certain types of powerful magical field can interfere with one another.

this does make sense. that is why a person might make a charm, then perhaps a weapon, possibly a piece of armor next. i agree with concept you stated, i would just like to see some clarification. mutiple rings or charms, i can copletely agree with you on. now a pair of boots, with a club, and a charm seems to fall into 3 different catagories; armor, weapons, slotless

i'm not sure if that makes sense.

KatieG wrote: I am curious, why are you only auctioning them off this year? I admit, there's no way I can ever get enough GP to be anywhere in the running for the auction, but the thought that through a lucky treasure draw I could get one of these was always kind of appealing (of course, then getting the wish ring in order to use the recipe would be problematic, but anyways...). Is there a particular reason that this isn't being done again? Just keeping the numbers down? Just curious...

We only have two left, so I want to get them into the hands of the collectors.

Let me clarify my idea a little more for 2012-2015.

This new group of powerful magic items would be called "Relics" so that they would be different than the "Artifacts". They would be less powerful and only affect one player.

I am thinking of something like a "+2 Vorpal Sword" that kills any "critical-able" monster if the player slides a natural "20" or "+3 Plate Armor" or a "Staff of the Magi" that allows unlimited spell use of 0-2nd level spells.

We can talk more about this after Gen Con, but I wanted to give you all a preview of what I had in mind. Again, you all would help in balancing them all out.

Finally, one other idea I had was to make these Relics really just super-Combo items where we would print up a bunch of each of them, and list a GP and Trade item price for each. Three would be made available each year (and only one year). They would be pretty expensive, but you could get multiple ones if you wish. Again, the power will be less than the Artifacts -- more like a step-up from URs. It would be a nice thank you for all the big token collectors.

We can figure all this out in Sept., but those are my thoughts anyway.

Thanks.

Staff of the Magi? Unlimited 0-2 level spells, including Magic Missile? That is something I would actually work hard to achieve, as opposed to the artifacts, which are way out of my league.

Yes, Please!