TOPIC: 2027 Treasure Token Details FINAL

Grizwald wrote: Jeff,
I think the Codex having powers is a mistake. Getting +2 to a stat is the equivalent to the Dragon Orbs, and those took 8 years to make. I think being able to make a Familiar with any 4 Codex is strong enough. If these tokens really do need something else, let them count as an Omni Orb for transmutes.

+1

In fact, I agree 100%. Codexes don’t need a power if any 4 can be used.


The idea of using them as an Omni is also a good one, though I think they could be valued as an Omni cube. Just modify the omni cube recipe to have a 3rd recipe - 1 codex.

Kusig wrote: I think the 8k Codex's not having whatever the combined stat bonuses rolled into the Familiar is a mistake and a dangerous precedent. Now instead of picking up 1x of the Codex each year for 3 years, if I want to stay or get close to the cutting edge for power I have to buy 2x and that's not even touching on that any of the 3 is arguably just as powerful as an Elder Dragon Orb 95% of the time. I think if this stays I'm just going to lock my build in at something HC and stop chasing the end game. If you insist on having powers on the 8k tokens, make sure they roll up into the final combined token AND don't require me to buy 2 every year if I want to stay or be near a top end build. Very frustrated about this one.

Jeez. This comment is just another reason why there shouldn't be any stat bonuses on the Codex Tokens at all. I'm having a really tough time trying to sympathize with what you perceive as a dilemma here.

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: I think the 8k Codex's not having whatever the combined stat bonuses rolled into the Familiar is a mistake and a dangerous precedent. Now instead of picking up 1x of the Codex each year for 3 years, if I want to stay or get close to the cutting edge for power I have to buy 2x and that's not even touching on that any of the 3 is arguably just as powerful as an Elder Dragon Orb 95% of the time. I think if this stays I'm just going to lock my build in at something HC and stop chasing the end game. If you insist on having powers on the 8k tokens, make sure they roll up into the final combined token AND don't require me to buy 2 every year if I want to stay or be near a top end build. Very frustrated about this one.

Jeez. This comment is just another reason why there shouldn't be any stat bonuses on the Codex Tokens at all. I'm having a really tough time trying to sympathize with what you perceive as a dilemma here.

So you think its a good idea for top end players to have to chase 2x of the 8k tokens every year now? Cool, you can fill the void I leave behind.

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: I think the 8k Codex's not having whatever the combined stat bonuses rolled into the Familiar is a mistake and a dangerous precedent. Now instead of picking up 1x of the Codex each year for 3 years, if I want to stay or get close to the cutting edge for power I have to buy 2x and that's not even touching on that any of the 3 is arguably just as powerful as an Elder Dragon Orb 95% of the time. I think if this stays I'm just going to lock my build in at something HC and stop chasing the end game. If you insist on having powers on the 8k tokens, make sure they roll up into the final combined token AND don't require me to buy 2 every year if I want to stay or be near a top end build. Very frustrated about this one.

Jeez. This comment is just another reason why there shouldn't be any stat bonuses on the Codex Tokens at all. I'm having a really tough time trying to sympathize with what you perceive as a dilemma here.

So you think its a good idea for top end players to have to chase 2x of the 8k tokens every year now? Cool, you can fill the void I leave behind.

I think you two are in agreement on your points, you're just using different words. I am fairly certain Rob was saying while he doesn't understand the drive you outlined the fact it exists means he agrees that the tokens should change to do nothing.

I understand folks have strong emotions about this, I just don't want to see folks who seem to be agreeing about things end up sour with each other

Impy wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: I think the 8k Codex's not having whatever the combined stat bonuses rolled into the Familiar is a mistake and a dangerous precedent. Now instead of picking up 1x of the Codex each year for 3 years, if I want to stay or get close to the cutting edge for power I have to buy 2x and that's not even touching on that any of the 3 is arguably just as powerful as an Elder Dragon Orb 95% of the time. I think if this stays I'm just going to lock my build in at something HC and stop chasing the end game. If you insist on having powers on the 8k tokens, make sure they roll up into the final combined token AND don't require me to buy 2 every year if I want to stay or be near a top end build. Very frustrated about this one.

Jeez. This comment is just another reason why there shouldn't be any stat bonuses on the Codex Tokens at all. I'm having a really tough time trying to sympathize with what you perceive as a dilemma here.

So you think its a good idea for top end players to have to chase 2x of the 8k tokens every year now? Cool, you can fill the void I leave behind.

I think you two are in agreement on your points, you're just using different words. I am fairly certain Rob was saying while he doesn't understand the drive you outlined the fact it exists means he agrees that the tokens should change to do nothing.

I understand folks have strong emotions about this, I just don't want to see folks who seem to be agreeing about things end up sour with each other

That was my point, another reason why the bonus stats should be removed from the Tokens.

John Ohlinger (Salsa John) wrote: Jeff,

The FAQ needs to be updated regarding the question about expiration dates on the Codex tokens. The FAQ still states they have expiration dates (Page 3 last question).

I also like the way you do not let more than one of the Patron level Codex/Familiars be equipped at the same time.

Thanks for catching that John! I will update and put a new link in Post #1.

I feel that making high end tokens that are part of a recipe that have slotless, tangible benefits, that can stack with the final product, as it is in a different slot, starts us on a slippery slope. When we have had big transmutes in the slotless slot in past years, think Skull or RoSP, the final product did not stack with thr individual pieces. That has been the way to curb power on things like these, which has worked in the past. I really think we need to make it so that these individual pieces do not stack with the transmuted familiar, to keep things more in line with what we've done in the past. If stats stay, they shouldn't stack with the transmuted familiar. If the stats are removed, that problem goes away as well.

My concern with the current slotless Codex design is that it unintentionally encourages duplicate purchases rather than meaningful choices.

As things stand, high-end players are strongly incentivized to acquire two of each Codex: one set to transmute the Familiar, and a second set to retain the permanent slotless +2 to STR / DEX / CON. At higher difficulty levels, passing on permanent slotless stats simply isn’t a real option.

This creates a situation where the optimal path isn’t about build diversity or playstyle, but about mandatory duplication. The Familiar itself is interesting, but the real power lies in the permanent slotless stat bonuses, which accelerates power creep and widens the gap between players without adding new gameplay depth.

I worry this turns what should feel like a premium reward into an expected cost of staying competitive, rather than a meaningful design choice.

What are some options?

1. Remove the stat bonus from the Codexes, knowing year 3 auctions might tank.
2. Bring back the expiration.
3. Apply the stat bonus to only Year 3, to protect token sales.
4. Choose different stat bonuses that aren't going to set the peak of power stats in the game. Or special powers.

With the suggestion that any 4 codexes can also make a Familiar, it avoids the last year fall off. Bonus if extra fragments can be used as Omni Orbs/Cubes.

That is definitely the way to go over making objectively best in slot tokens that will make high end optimizers feel like they need to get 2 of each to avoid falling behind.

Jeff,
True Dungeon has a reputation for being pay to win. The first thing you have to do is spend a couple of thousand to get a full set of treasure enhancers, which are getting harder to find. Then you have to fill every slot with tokens. But not just any tokens. The best tokens for that slot, otherwise you're wasting your time. Be ready to shell out for a brand new luxury car or a new mortgage. Once you get everything filled with the best of the best, now you'll need to keep up with the new tokens that come out. A few URs, some trade goods for upgrades, and the cool multi year transmutes. But these Codex tokens are a big shift. Now to keep up a high end player has to potentially look at spending $16k for 2 tokens. One to use, one to transmute. This doesn't help the pay to win impressions that people have.

What happens when that high end player has had enough? I know I don't have $16,000 a year to spend on True Dungeon tokens. There are several high end players that are thinking that this is the time to get off the spending treadmill. But when the target for the Codex is thinking about leaving the game because of the cost with that token, it's not a good thing.

Grizwald wrote: Jeff,
True Dungeon has a reputation for being pay to win. The first thing you have to do is spend a couple of thousand to get a full set of treasure enhancers, which are getting harder to find. Then you have to fill every slot with tokens. But not just any tokens. The best tokens for that slot, otherwise you're wasting your time. Be ready to shell out for a brand new luxury car or a new mortgage. Once you get everything filled with the best of the best, now you'll need to keep up with the new tokens that come out. A few URs, some trade goods for upgrades, and the cool multi year transmutes. But these Codex tokens are a big shift. Now to keep up a high end player has to potentially look at spending $16k for 2 tokens. One to use, one to transmute. This doesn't help the pay to win impressions that people have.

What happens when that high end player has had enough? I know I don't have $16,000 a year to spend on True Dungeon tokens. There are several high end players that are thinking that this is the time to get off the spending treadmill. But when the target for the Codex is thinking about leaving the game because of the cost with that token, it's not a good thing.

This 100%.

If anything, the 8k stuff should be either/or like cavadar skull or teeth + semilich. At least that's a somewhat interesting choice depending on your needs and budget.